Evasion and non-avoidable phys damage abilities

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deathspenalty wrote:

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ElricOfGrans wrote:

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Drudley wrote:

Use any movement skill do get away while stuck in bear traps.

There are no movement skills for a low-Int Bow user ;)

Lightning warp+reduced duration dont require more than 58 int ;) And you should have more than that for your support gems anyway, unless you dont use any int gem at all, wich i find hard to believe.

I do not know how to do it, but I believe you can view people's characters through the forum. I use only Green gems on my Ranger, and no hybrid Dex/Int ones either.

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Atomgun wrote:

Just be glad you have acrobatics and ondars guile.

Armor gets no bonus for mitigating spell damage and projectiles from keystones like that. You also get nodes that decrease the chance to be frozen, shocked, and stunned.

Armor has help in the stun area but when it comes to ice, they f'd. When facing ice arrows with armor, every one hits with ice damage, while mr Evasion gets hit rarely as it is and even less with Ondars.

There is a lot of life on the dext side fo the tree now. They get a few 10% nodes and the marauder gets 5%. Yeah, there are more nodes for life on teh marauder side of the tree but it takes a lot more just to get the same amount at the end of the build as the Dext users have to get to come up with the 100% increase of life.


The only exception is the shadow who may have a harder time getting life, but they have ES and ghost reaver.

What?


The right side of the tree has dick for life. The Marauder can easily break 200% by going into the Scion Wheel which is right next to his tree. The Ranger/Shadow struggles just to hit 150% by hitting every life node on their side of the tree, and if they want more they have to go into the Scion Tree which is incredibly point inefficient.

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CharanJaydemyr wrote:

those projectiles fired by the constructs are not ranged attacks but spells; Ondar's Guile won't help you there.

Mostly I get Ondar's Guile much earlier than you (by level 35, if I can) so that two heavy threats of Lunaris are trivialised. Titty bitches, trivial; Piety's ice form, trivial.

My bad, didn't know that. It makes Ondar's even less valuable.
Titty bitches are easy to manage, actually. They cant turn once they have started firing. Ice form is much worse, but you dont face Piety every day. And then I prefer to just break LoS behind some collumn. Ondar is rather hard to reach sometimes, you have to sacrifice a lot to get there early.

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Atomgun wrote:

Just be glad you have acrobatics and ondars guile.

Armor gets no bonus for mitigating spell damage and projectiles from keystones like that.

Projectile immunity is a nice, but minor bonus. It's overrated.

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Atomgun wrote:

You also get nodes that decrease the chance to be frozen, shocked, and stunned.

Absolutely worthless. I dont have them and I know I dont need them. A quicksilver flask to remove 'frozen' effect is enough.

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Atomgun wrote:

Armor has help in the stun area but when it comes to ice, they f'd. When facing ice arrows with armor, every one hits with ice damage, while mr Evasion gets hit rarely as it is and even less with Ondars.

No they are not. I have an armor character. Dont get hit by Piety's frost arrows (easy), 5K hp and a flask to remove frozen.

But thats still not the point. Point is - evasion is FINE but it has a huge gap when in comes to unavoidable physical damage. Both armor and ES work against such damage source, evasion does not.

This whole projectile immunity bullshit is hilarious.


You're immune to white mob ranged attacks which most characters are regardless anyways. Blue/Rare mobs with an additional accuracy modifier/aura on the other hand will be hitting you, and will be hitting you very often. Not to mention things like projectile curse, etc.



Evasion sucks a massive cock on its own. The only reason why Evasion is good is because paired up with LC it is massively overpowered as fuck. A pure Evasion character (using Acrobatics/Ondars/Phase) is not viable in HC without LC, period. You will eventually run into one of your counters, and it will basically make your life miserable and likely you will die.

I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, but what allbusiness said is absolutely right.

EVA chars fail at high levels against packs of heavy hitters. Ranged, or not.
Pack of champs with "bad" mods (usually combined with other mobs) can evaporate eva chars with ease. Ever seen how a volley from a blue pack of skele archers kills 5-6K HP char in a sudden?
In a situation, where AR would save life.

And it doesn't matter the amount of eva rating, or multiple layers of defence. Your evasion, dodge and block will just fail simultaneously and you'll take it all. It will happen very very rare but it will.
Been there, seen this.

There's a reason why the experienced HC players avoid building around evasion, or just build hybrid.

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torturo wrote:

I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, but what allbusiness said is absolutely right.

EVA chars fail at high levels against packs of heavy hitters. Ranged, or not.
Pack of champs with "bad" mods (usually combined with other mobs) can evaporate eva chars with ease. Ever seen how a volley from a blue pack of skele archers kills 5-6K HP char in a sudden?
In a situation, where AR would save life.

And it doesn't matter the amount of eva rating, or multiple layers of defence. Your evasion, dodge and block will just fail simultaneously and you'll take it all. It will happen very very rare but it will.
Been there, seen this.

There's a reason why the experienced HC players avoid building around evasion, or just build hybrid.

Armor-Users fail at high levels against packs of heavy hitters even more^^.

With about 20k Armor a Extra-Damage rare devourer hits my Witch for about 2,5k Damage, more with a Crit. Armor is totally worthless against heavy hitting targets. Evasion however gives a constant bonus. And when I switch Herald of Ash/Ice for Grace there isn't an enemy in the game which can hurt me with projectiles (well in more then 5% of the cases), Accurate or not (maybe Accurate + Accuracy Aura, not sure).

And yes Physical Spelldamage is ugly, but thats it. And with Atziris Step you only get hit by them about half the time and if you really want safety use Rearguard, for some extra Spellblock.

And that is just Archers... using Acrobatics with a Shield makes most things a joke, since it is a good defense against spells, attacks, well basically everything.

To get a reliable 50% Physical Mitigation you need insane Armor + a lot of Echarges. With Evasion you are basically getting it for free and are far saver vs. Crits. But I made the same ranger once with Evasion/Acrobatics and once with IR. Due to not having a Shield you won't get the incredible amounts of Armor, also my Dex gave me about 60% increased Evasion, which is gone with IR, resulting in a Lower Armor, I lose my protection against Elemental Spells (so yes I get a bit of defense against physical spells, but get almost twice the damage from elemental hits or spells). Projectiles are again dangerous.

Armor is better in exactly one situation. That is low-impact rapid physical spell-damage. Big physical spells still ignore your armor due to its calculation, so its good against brutus spikes, not so good against higher levels of rockfalls (you still take considerable damage). However you take a lot more damage from elemental spells and even more from elemental attacks. You need a really high armor to take less damage from physical attacks.

So Armor:
-Better vs. lots of small physical hits
-Better vs. Physical Spells (considering how much 46% Spelldodge and 15% reduction from Echarges is I'm not even sure, but the damage is less spiky)

Evasion:
-Better vs. Projectile Attacks
-Better vs. Elemental Attacks
-Better vs. Big Physical Attacks
-Better vs. Elemental Spells

Actually the higher the map, the better evasion gets. With Enfeeble, Blind or just switching to grace their are so many ways to boost evasion getting a safe and reliable increase in mitigation while armor is screwed when enemies deal massive damage in single hits, exspecially when they crit.

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There's a reason why the experienced HC players avoid building around evasion, or just build hybrid.

Actually there are a lot using Evasion/Acrobatics now. Exspecially since it is the best way to deal with Atziri, since there isn't a lot of physical spelldamage.

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And it doesn't matter the amount of eva rating, or multiple layers of defence. Your evasion, dodge and block will just fail simultaneously and you'll take it all.

Well your not running around with 1 life. If you would always either block/dodge/evade you would be invulnerable. But since Blocking/Dodge resets the entropy-counter you can actually evade twice in a row, even with less then 50% evasion-chance, if you block in between. So with Blocking/Dodging you are almost immune to normal attacks (thats likely due to you only blocking when evasion fails, so if you catch a failed evasion with a block, you will still evade the next time again).

I actually tried this with the Vaal Oversoul and a ranger with a Shield. He had 40% Dodge-Chance, 55% Evasion (not sure if thats right vs. Oversoul though) and 75% Blockchance. The 22nd Smash killed him, all the others before he evaded, blocked or dodged. That was a bit lucky, since on average every 15th smash should hit him, but that shows how powerful Evasion/Acrobatics is with Block. A Armor-based char would be dead in about 4 smashs.

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So Armor:
-Better vs. lots of small physical hits
-Better vs. Physical Spells (considering how much 46% Spelldodge and 15% reduction from Echarges is I'm not even sure, but the damage is less spiky)

Actually, yes armor is better against many small rapid hits. Arctic armor is better assuming you are willing to sacrafice damage to get mana regen, intelligence, clarity etc...

They also have mind over matter

I have a character with MindOverMatter + ArcticArmor and crazy mana regen. It is like having armor except you block 100% of those types of hits adn you don't need endurance charges to do it.



For the guy who said evasion is only good against white mobs... get more evasion.

In Domination I took an EV Phase/Acro Spell/Block build to merciless Piety under leveled and with 900 life, Dominus under leveled and with 1100 life, and began mapping with 1300 life, and no legitimate deaths (by legitimate I mean due to player error or inescapable mechanics; I was playing on a laptop below minimum specs, so there were a handful of deaths to massive lag spikes, but even then far fewer than I would experience normally). No CWDT IC, no AA MoM, just stacking pure "chance to avoid" mechanics. Those life totals were purely me being lazy--my gear was shit. It was just enough to eat an occasional hit and kite if needed, or against certain foes, mechanically avoid projectile collision altogether and allow RNG to cover up some degree of player error (again, potatoe induced lag spikes withstanding). My point is, a more dedicated player on a PC >= recommended specs, can do much better.

I'm not a fan of the balance between core defenses. I haven't been, since ES became life 2.0 and chaos became elemental 2.0. Nonetheless, I don't believe there is a problem with EV vs. spell phys, as much as I believe there is a problem with over-tuning content as power-moar builds raise the benchmark for bare minimum necessities. The game stopped being about core defenses sometime after CB, when the quirky "add-on" properties ceased to have significant, game altering drawbacks--those "add-ons" became the new core defenses.

TL;DR: Power creep.

You don't understand, people.
First, it's not that evasion is bad. It's just not as safe as armor, as damage is not mitigated and is unpredictable in spikes.

Second, it's not that armor is that good. Armor suffers hard DR the higher the damage goes. The key is damage taken is mitigated to a lesser, or higher extent and is somehow predictable.

Third, there's no worst and best. Both AR and EVA suck. They can work properly only combined with other forms of damage mitigation/avoidance.

So we come to the point : an AR char with multiple layers of defence, performs better, than EVA char with multiple layers of defence, but no armor.

I wonder when will people learn, that it's mainly flat mitigation combined with block, that works.
These are AA, endu charges, block (no, EVA isn't even there). Nothing else really matters.
Combine AR, endu and block, and you'll have synergy that keeps you safe and vivid.
Combine EVA, dodge and block, and watch what happen when they fail simultaneously in high level environment. EVA lacks damage mitigation and avoidance use to fail.

^ to put context to my last post, I would say the primary distinction is ease of access. EV is, though perhaps daunting to a new player, much easier to build "safely," without good gear or second play-through skill gems. At least, throughout core content, and as of the last time I played. Things may have changed since then.

In any case, I'm still not a fan that GR, ZO, AA MoM, EV/IC, etc... are the norm for approaching the upper limits of content. I should also disclaim, these are my opinions according to my idealized vision of PoE, established by the direction we seemed to be taking in CB. By no means am I suggesting that I disprove of the state of the game, only the backseat our core defenses were given. They now require auxiliary, now ancillary, forms of damage mitigation to perform, and the potential for otherwise sometimes disappoints me.