Daggers.. #1 in dps... #1 in crit... #1 in passive tree... am I missing something?

"

demivion wrote:

Daggers are the best weapons, because crit is the best DPS. Crit is the best DPS because crit multiplier is scaling a 150% multiplier as opposed to every other form of multiplier/increased is scaling a 100% value.

This is not the reason.

"

syrioforel wrote:

"

demivion wrote:

Daggers are the best weapons, because crit is the best DPS. Crit is the best DPS because crit multiplier is scaling a 150% multiplier as opposed to every other form of multiplier/increased is scaling a 100% value.

This is not the reason.

Don't post please unless you understand the game.

Daggers at 95% crit can do upwards of 650% multi hits. And this is a very reasonable setup.

So due to crit scaling daggers can consistently JUST FROM CRIT do 6 times the damage of any other weapon consistently.

This is why crit multi is the thing that needs to be targetted. Arc DPS is around 20k with no crit, 60k with crit - purely because of the crit multi multipliers, any solution must involve the crit multi base as suggestions in the thread including nerfing base damage just doesn't deal with elemental and nerfing attack speed just doesn't deal with the uhh.. 600% increased damage.

Ideal balancing for this game would include:

1. Nerfing base crit multi.
2. Adding new passive notables for RT weapons.
3. Balancing out RT implicits.

However, due to the way the game is balanced, crit will always do more damage since it's the one with the TWO EXTRA MULTIPLIERS. If you can add in two extra multipliers and expect it to do the same DPS then you are kidding yourself. Those that argue daggers should do the same as RT weapons are just deluded but the state of crit at the moment does need some serious addressing.

I think the way to deal with op daggers is to introduce seperate crit multipliers for all kind of weapons. This way it can defenitely be done. A dagger might just get a lower crit multi than a 2 hand weapon or a 1h axe while it's got the higher chance.

(I mean that one number that all the stacked crit multi from gear & passives get mutliplied with)

I do agree crit multiplier should be CAPPED, but not nerfed at it's base.

Nerfing it at base would result in nerfing everyone, which would hit more the people who don't even reach such absurd dps than others.

Or as mentioned, add diminishing returns.

So we get something like:
< 400 crit multi 1:1.5 ratio
> 400 crit multi 1.5:1.5 ratio
> 500 crit multi 2:1.5 ratio
> 600 crit multi 2.5:1.5 ratio

So after you reach 400% next 100% crit multi requires 50% more investment into crit multiplier, after 500% you need double more investment for another 100% than under 400%.

For those who don't get what i am talking about:
Atm you need 66% crit multi increase for a 100% crit multiplier bonus.
When you go over 400% crit multiplier you need 100% crit multiplier for another 100% crit multi.
When you go over 500% crit multiplier you need 133% crit multiplier for another 100% crit multi.
When you go over 600% crit multiplier you need 166% crit multiplier for another 100% crit multi.

So reaching 600% crit multiplier would require 432% crit multiplier increase over the current 300%.
Which normalizes the medium value everyone would be running and makes other stats other than crit multiplier worth going for.

"

Mannoth wrote:

I do agree crit multiplier should be CAPPED, but not nerfed at it's base.

Nerfing it at base would result in nerfing everyone, which would hit more the people who don't even reach such absurd dps than others.

"

LSN wrote:

I think the way to deal with op daggers is to introduce seperate crit multipliers for all kind of weapons. This way it can defenitely be done. A dagger might just get a lower crit multi than a 2 hand weapon or a 1h axe while it's got the higher chance.

(I mean that one number that all the stacked crit multi from gear & passives get mutliplied with)

As an example:

daggers: 130
1h maces: 160
1h swords: 160
1h axes: 170
2h axes: 230
2h swords: 220
2h maces: 220
2h staves: 190
...

still on the idea that GGG needs to make chance to crit and crit multiplier keystones an inverce factor, daggers needs to get many of those crit multiplier replaced by something else, foils could use a better inate bonus like 35-50 instead of 20-35 crit multiplier and staff could use more or better crit multipliers keystones.

that way it will look like this:
daggers: with keystones would have the best crit chance (70%+) but low multiplier (200-250%)
foils: with keystones would have good crit chance (50-60%) and multiplier (250-350%)
staffs: with keystones would have low crit chance (30-40%) but high multiplier (400-500%)

2h swords/maces need something to ofset the penalty of not having a shield wich is tought in a game where geting 1-2 shooted is quite easy, may be if 2h weapons had an inate +1-2 to max ress or 30-50% reduced dmg from crits or a plain more HP/ES mod in them people would be more willing to pick them.

How about just softcapping critical damage at around 300 -- not by stopping progression with an artificial cap, but softly; by having no combination of skills and gear that takes critical damage ABOVE the +300% treshold?

"

Mannoth wrote:

add diminishing returns

Is what should happen.

I ve been ranting about diminishing returns after your reach some soft cap for quite some time. Same with ES/HP overstacking, but it should also take gear into acount.

As missuse stated, I am a 2 handed cycloner with pretty much bis items, yet my tooltip is lower however most times when I map with people that has 250k+ reave I clear faster with my 130k cyclone tooltip(pve setup). You can't compare different skills tooltip and not different builds at all, doesn't work.

2 handed builds' problems are just as he says survivalability, however I'm fine due to good gear, build and experience, I help people daily to make them not die. With mediocre gear it will be hard to level far, where with a shield and small tree investment can get max block and invulnerable, for very cheap.

Ps. Mobile, typos will be made. Ds