Daggers.. #1 in dps... #1 in crit... #1 in passive tree... am I missing something?

does someone want to trade his mirrored wand(max physical) for my mirrored dagger?

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Sickness wrote:

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missuse wrote:

Posts in this thread are becoming biased. All I see are people with RT saying crit multi should be capped at 200% and people using daggers saying how hard it is to get high dps and have enough defenses.

If you see bias then you are most likely projecting your own. I brought up cap at 200% and I am playing a dagger build. I am playing the build I linked. While Disrupteds concerns about 121% hp are probably justified (I need to try it for myself, I have faith in the end of path of life nodes) it's still not hard at all to get high DPS and have enough defenses as a crit build. It is infact the easiest build to achive that because the DPS comes so easily.

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missuse wrote:

Sure daggers need to be toned down, they should not scale as good with passives, but cutting the dmg 3-5x is silly.

There will never be balance aslong as you can increase both crit chance and crit multiplier. They simply scale too well with eachother that it becomes by far the best way to increase DPS.
If, say, all the crit nodes was nerfed enough to make non crit balanced with crit builds then it would never be worth to spec a little or moderatly in crit.
Both of those situations are bad.
If you make the multiplier fixed at 200% the imbalance that would follow is infinitely easier to balance than what we have now.

To cap at 200% means u will do 2x dmg when u strike a crit, why would u invest in crit chance/multi and not invest the same number of points in %phys nodes and get 100% chance to strike close to 200% dmg (lets say u got 300% nodes, no brainier if u should invest in 250% more or so, or go crit with capped multi at 200%).

The dps does not come easy in your build, in fact around 40 dps nodes have been taken, u don't see many non crit users going for 40 dps nodes.

I simply say that if GGG did what u propose no one will play crit.

Non crit builds dps should not be balanced with crit builsd - end of discussion. You have so much points, u choose what to invest them in. If you choose to invest 20 points in dps and dont have to stack crit chance/multi gear but rather in life/res/block than its a choice of your play style and the amount of orbs you are able to invest in gear. Your proposition does not nerf one wep, but whole type of build (if cap was 200 no crit casters, no crit staffs, no wanders, no crit bows....). Everything would revolve around RT, I don't see that being smart development.

My opinion is that bows/wands and daggers deserve a slight nerf (or not at all) while all other weps especially 2h, need a significant boost. The problem is not crit, the problem is that u can do more dps with a crit dagger than you could with a crit staff build.

You are talking about specifics and i am talking about a more general idea.
Obviously it would be imbalanced if they changed one thing only. But my point is that after they have changed it it will be ALOT easier to achive balance than it is right now.

I agree that spending 40 points on offense should give more dps than spending 20 points, but with crit stacking it gives WAY too much more dps. And if you spend 40 points on non-crit damage nodes then you are still faaar behind crit builds in dps.
It is currently very very imbalanced.


You said it yourself, no one goes for any other kind of dps builds than crit. How can you not think that that is imbalanced? Why is it good to practically force all dps builds to stack crit? I think it is a rather boring design and would much rather prefer a wider range of different ways to get dps

i have an idea based on what other people said about the weaponrange

Introduce a AOE Multiplier as Base stat on weapons. With Base Stat i mean the stats a Weapon always has like its physicaldmg/attackspeed/basecritchance but not the implicit mod.

then you could give daggers a multiplier of 70% and 2hand axes(example) like 120%

this would make daggers strong in singletarget and 2handers have more potential in aoe damage while their singletarget dmg is still not worse than before

Daggers are the best weapons, because crit is the best DPS. Crit is the best DPS because crit multiplier is scaling a 150% multiplier as opposed to every other form of multiplier/increased is scaling a 100% value.

Not only that but physical damage bypasses more armor the harder you hit, which favors big hits aka crits.

Added on to all that (usually in conjuction with) is elemental/stun status effects that trigger every time you crit, and invariably last a long time because you're hitting much harder with a crit.

Everything about crits is scaled up exponentially higher than non-crits due to the 150% multiplier. This automatically makes daggers the best melee weapon. Wands are as powerful as daggers because they are the best ranged weapon for crits, however the skills are limited with wands which limits their usability.

in order for daggers to be balanced with the rest of the melee weapons, they should be 33% weaker than other weapons (which it isn't) and crit multiplier on the tree/gear should be equally as hard to get as weapon damage modifiers (which it isn't) I won't go into the math but that's the only way to balance daggers.

Daggers aren't the problem.

The problem is everything else compared to them is bad for melee.
Try doing a 2H build and see how well that goes.

And nerfing crit multi would nerf every caster out there also so i do not like that idea.

Better buff 2 handers, in any way really. Since atm they lose a shield which is massive, and still deal low dps compared to crit builds.

There is only ONE thing going for 2H and it's Kaoms heart which isn't even needed now that you can use Belly of the Beast and gain tons of life with a dagger build.

And before people think im biased or something, only build i didn't play so far was a wander because of being scared of their mana cost.

Compared to my 2h axe marauder my CI shadow with Bino just wrecks stuff, not to mention can facetank 2/3 atziri guardians at the same time.

that is a reasonable assessment ,

even among non dagger builds , weapon types with access to good crit bases or fast attack speed bases are worlds better than those that dont.


crit bows are almost as powerful as daggers and falter only because their access to crit is inferior.

crit wands are arguably superior to daggers because their passives grant massive elemental bonuses which means longer and better status effects.

even crit staffs (if you could roll them easily) would be the go to 2 hand weapon.


in comparison low aps hammers axes and even swords are largely ignored. high base damage does not make up for the lack of proper scaling.


they just cant compete

I still don't see a problem with this "not all weapons are the same - fix it" philosophy.

You can still play any content as 2h user. What does it matter if u have 100k dps and some crit dagger has 200k. Sure he will do it faster a bit, but so what? Tree is there for everyone to pick what he wants/likes to play.

U want a 8k mara tank swinging and leaping some giant maul - u can do it
he will have lower clear speed than some 4k hp shadow crit dagger, but in the end its a matter of play style.

On standard people like maxing dps, on new leagues people like cheap builds that allow fast leveling and farming on end game content with little investment. On HC people tend to seeks builds with less point investment in dps. There is no one true best build - and dagger builds are certainly not the one. For each circumstance there is the best option, or several.... But, in all mentioned, its not the same one.

Demanding crit multi/chance daggers are nerfed might balance things in std, but will severly change the balance in temp leagues, where daggers are the inferior option.

Furthermore game mechanics severely punish high dps with reflect, even the most careful extra high dps chars are not immune to reflect deaths. So in a lot of cases maxing dps is not a good idea.

Check this out:
http://fryingpan.pancakeapps.com/index.html#/home

in first 1000 chars, mara and which rule (not many crit dagger builds with those), shadow and ranger cant come close.

In HC, mare rules even more

Rampage and Beyond are as GGG predicted season of the witch

My point is, in the top most successful chars there is Mara/Witch in perma leagues and Withc in temp leagues - none of witch usually uses attack daggers.

As my final remark to this thread I would like to point out that making everything the same, or close to each other = lack of variability = boredom comes a lot faster.

Witch is about the same as shadow when it comes to daggers lol.
Shadow will go into witch starting nodes anyway so same thing (asuming CI, which a lot of daggers build are).

Also when a 1 handed weapon outclasses a 2 handed weapon at damage what is the point in 2 handed weapons existing?

Even dual wielding anything is better than going 2 hand since at least dual wielders can scale block.
Going 2 handed has no real benefit except 2 possible 6 links and Kaoms.

I allways thought daggers base crit chance in conjunction with the best crit nodes on the tree made daggers supperior to any other melee alternative. And as allways, without block you loose.