The -15% exp penalty is obnoxiously bad outdated design.

"

ljubisa24 wrote:

I dont think this system is good as it turns away newbie players. As someone who just started i dont have a chance to know the game enough so this 7.5% i lose atm are a lot specialy considering this is a very bugy beta phase. It should be different and made a bit more newbie friendy (not deleted) but going from normal and 0% to 7.5% and 15% is a lot.

Dying should matter and there should be a penalty but not like this. This system cant work on the long run if left unchanged. If they cant rework the system that would make some classes more fun as well as death undesirable and defence that would matter it should be made closer to having 2.5% loss after first 3 chapters, then for every next chapter 2.5% more until reaching the final 15%.

Again i made a wall'o'text ... sorry xD !

Hey, this is good, some reasoning. The XP loss increasing at a more gradual rate over the difficulty is not a bad idea.

I wouldn't mind seeing something akin to D2's corpse running where there is some way to get back a portion of the lost XP, maybe by killing the monster that killed you. Potentially increasing XP penalty if you die to the same mob again. That could be interesting. Anyway, this is much more meaningful and thought provoking than 'its terrible outdated design' and I thank you.

"

humakti wrote:

I just wonder why they can not create a baddy league for those of us who hate death penalties or who want to respec more often.

I believe that a league such as this would kill the longevity of the game. Being able to easily get to super high levels and try out all sorts of different build combinations without the time investment would ruin the replayability for more than just the people in that league. Just my opinion on that one.

"

thepmrc wrote:

"

ljubisa24 wrote:

I am open for any kind of discussion but try and have something real in your posts instead of just talking junk and being a keyboard warrior lol.

I make posts that explain the design goals and how the implemented penalty achieves those goals. My posts are very real and have substantive arguments based on facts. When people just say 'design is terrible' or 'design is outdated' this is useless. There is no reasoning, no foundation simply misguided opinions of people who have not done their homework. Sometimes this causes me to ad hominem a bit, this is my shortcoming, but my arguments for the penalty are based on design goals and balance issues.

Sorry my friend but you avoided to answer any of my "newbie" questions, ideas or propositions or even talk about any of the points i believe are valid. As you said yourself you jumped right over to the ad hominem.

Now if you wana still continue take it to my PM box.

I therefore apologize to everyone for having to read this pointless argument it wont happend again. Sorry for the thread derail i may have caused i guess i got carried away!

EDIT:

My point exactly. Now i dont know about the mob idea but ye could be interesting. Die twice from the same one and get a bigger loss.

EDIT2:

A softcore league wouldnt be bad. Just give it less drops and some level penalty for changing it and it could work (change idea case at some point those softies might wana pvp at a endgame point).

"

ljubisa24 wrote:

"

thepmrc wrote:

"

ljubisa24 wrote:

I am open for any kind of discussion but try and have something real in your posts instead of just talking junk and being a keyboard warrior lol.

I make posts that explain the design goals and how the implemented penalty achieves those goals. My posts are very real and have substantive arguments based on facts. When people just say 'design is terrible' or 'design is outdated' this is useless. There is no reasoning, no foundation simply misguided opinions of people who have not done their homework. Sometimes this causes me to ad hominem a bit, this is my shortcoming, but my arguments for the penalty are based on design goals and balance issues.

Sorry my friend but you avoided to answer any of my "newbie" questions, ideas or propositions or even talk about any of the points i believe are valid. As you said yourself you jumped right over to the ad hominem.

Now if you wana still continue take it to my PM box.

I therefore apologize to everyone for having to read this pointless argument it wont happend again. Sorry for the thread derail i may have caused i guess i got carried away!

EDIT:

My point exactly. Now i dont know about the mob idea but ye could be interesting. Die twice from the same one and get a bigger loss.

EDIT2:

A softcore league wouldnt be bad. Just give it less drops and some level penalty for changing it and it could work (change idea case at some point those softies might wana pvp at a endgame point).

I am not sure about less drops for a softcore league. The one thing I like about this game is that I can generally gear up without needing an AH or other players.

Although I would think since it is easier or would be to level that you either exclude them from PvP or penalize them in some way if they want to PvP at endgame.

Of course since I also hate PvP maybe I am showing my bias.

Maybe you just allow them to PvP against each other.

I assume the other leagues are excluded from PvPing with each other.

"

deteego wrote:

Pages 25-28, I think I made posts earlier than that

Cheers for that =)

"

deteego wrote:

Making things difficult for difficulties sake is the stupidest way to design a game, any game that has followed this formula has failed (or never turned into a success).

I would argue that Demon's Souls and Dark Souls definitely have elements of difficulty for its own sake, but that discussion is likely not profitable to pursue here.

"

deteego wrote:

Making things difficult so they provide depth and challenging enough (so they are rewarding) but not so challenging as to be kicked in the balls = good game design

Agreed.

"

deteego wrote:

PoE does have a lot of the latter, but the exp death is the former. Because of the stupid design, it only makes the game challenging if you don't do the OP builds that are famously shown on streams.

If anything, that is a balance issue, not a failure of the XP penalty system.

"

deteego wrote:

In fact, doing an OP build + partying makes PoE the most dumbed down, least challenging and boring game (it consists solely of pumping up one skill, such as ground slam or power siphon or lightning strike, and just spamming those skills. Its that + flasks) I have played.

I'm afraid there's a lot of hyperbole there. Using a strong cookie-cutter build in a party full of them certainly does make the game easier, but not only are those choices (if you want to copy a build and not think about it at all, the loss of depth as a result is on your shoulders IMO), in my experience I it doesn't remove the element of skill as entirely as you claim.

"

deteego wrote:

This is the biggest problem with PoE, there is a massively extreme contrast (and I am talking about getting into merciless, i.e. lvl 45+) between the gameplay. There is the easy facerolling partying side with OP builds, whos gameplay is incredibly dumb and boring, and you are unlikely to die unless you see a chick outside the window with a pair of DD's, and then there is the other side of the game where you try (other) builds, which are, by design, more likely to get you killed, however are intended to be in the game and intended to be used (i.e. true melee builds is a good example, and if such builds were never meant to be used in PoE, they should cut out 1/4 of of the tree and some stats as well)

The contrast you talk about is IMO not so large as you see it, although I agree it does exist, and you have so far failed to connect this to the XP penalty. Removing the XP penalty will help poor builds level, but will remove the consequences of build decisions. Removing XP penalty cannot fix the rift between terrible builds and great ones, and terrible builds must always exist in order for good builds to also exist (by contrast). Finding good builds is part of the game - circumventing that is a choice.

"

deteego wrote:

And again, reiterating what I said before, I don't want there to be no penalty on death, I want a different penalty that is actually sane.

Do you have a suggestion? I simply don't see such a strong connection between level grinding at high levels, build viability, and balance issues (all of which are outstanding issues to some degree with the game IMO) and the default XP penalty for dying.

Any penalty which primarily costs you time is probably going to be no better. It'll still promote grinding in some shape or form. OP builds will still be miles ahead of terrible ones, people will still copy builds, and terrible builds will still struggle to progress, although maybe not quite as much depending on the penalty. It won't make them any better though, but it might make some players less aware of how bad their builds are if they aren't quite as stuck. If the penalty does not involve XP at all, DPS builds would potentially have an advantage in that they could farm XP faster.

Well ye i thought less drops idea would be fine as it would penalise the "softcore" players for taking it easier.

But ye any kind of well thought out penalty for this league could work. Even less expirience gained by killing the mobs. Like no death penalty and a bit easier mobs to drop but 50% expirience gained less. So in reality if they wanted to PvP properly they would either have to grind their guts out or go to a harder mode of play. Even then it could probably have softcore players going hardcore at some point in time.

Just assumptions and a random idea tho.

Death penalty for hardcore is being shipped off to default. It figures that default should have SOME penalty as well. Corpse runs are truly bad design. They're tedious and I have never had fun trekking through portals and waypoints to get to my corpse. It's also pointless if you have a team who can just TP you to the spot where you died. Wow, what a penalty that was.

Since there's no gold, they can't penalize that, either. And don't get me started on penalizing currency. Even portal scrolls and identify scrolls are precious to some people, but could you imagine if the game subtracted a chaos from your inventory on death?

Experience makes perfect sense. It hurts when it hits you. You just think "God, there goes an hour of play time" once you're at a higher level, but it also motivates you to be cautious and keeps you on your toes. If you have a good build and you are a good player, you can avoid death. If you don't have a good build then you reroll and try again. The other nice thing about the way they do experience is that you do not actually lose levels, so really it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme.

I want real, viable proposals from those of you who want to change the system. One that hurts hard and keeps you on your toes as well as the current system, and one that makes sense in this game world with the hardcore, unforgiving vibe that PoE has. If you cannot handle a bit of XP loss on death, then my friends, this game is not for you. Move along.

"

ljubisa24 wrote:

Well i made some ok arguments but they all ended up in walls'o'texts so let me shorten it up.

I dont think this system is good as it turns away newbie players. As someone who just started i dont have a chance to know the game enough so this 7.5% i lose atm are a lot specialy considering this is a very bugy beta phase. It should be different and made a bit more newbie friendy (not deleted) but going from normal and 0% to 7.5% and 15% is a lot.

Dying should matter and there should be a penalty but not like this. This system cant work on the long run if left unchanged. If they cant rework the system that would make some classes more fun as well as death undesirable and defence that would matter it should be made closer to having 2.5% loss after first 3 chapters, then for every next chapter 2.5% more until reaching the final 15%.

Again i made a wall'o'text ... sorry xD !

I don't agree that it turns away newbies because I think starting with 0% penalty and moving up in increments of 7.5% is sufficient to introduce them gently. However, I think something like the following could be an even better option if enough people are concerned about the impact on new players:

Normal:
Act I, II, III: 0% penalty
Cruel:
Act I : 2.5% penalty
Act II : 5% penalty
Act III: 7.5% penalty
Merciless:
Act I : 10% penalty
Act II : 15% penalty
Act III: 15% penalty (Going any higher would be excessive IMO, but Merciless should be tough on subpar builds IMO.)

I don't feel PoE has very strong class identity, but what counts as "fun" varies somewhat for person to person, so I'm curious as to what you're looking for and how you think it's related to the XP penalty when you say "If they cant rework the system that would make some classes more fun".

"

ljubisa24 wrote:

Well ye i thought less drops idea would be fine as it would penalise the "softcore" players for taking it easier.

But ye any kind of well thought out penalty for this league could work. Even less expirience gained by killing the mobs. Like no death penalty and a bit easier mobs to drop but 50% expirience gained less. So in reality if they wanted to PvP properly they would either have to grind their guts out or go to a harder mode of play. Even then it could probably have softcore players going hardcore at some point in time.

Just assumptions and a random idea tho.

I guess I do not see why there has to be a death penalty.

Maybe as I get closer to real death I start to dislike the idea of a penalty involved with death...

Keep the mobs hard. Let us die over and over again. Let us play with builds and learn what a good build versus a bad build is.

I always hated the look up and copy a build from good players thing. I liked to mess around and try a build and maybe fail and try a new build when I hit a roadblock.

Maybe as we learn some of us will move up to try Default or even Hardcore after learning the game a bit by playing around with builds and gear.

Maybe you just exclude PvP from that League. So if you want to PvP you would need to move to default or hardcore and level a new character in those leagues.

"

Anomandaris wrote:

"

ljubisa24 wrote:

Well i made some ok arguments but they all ended up in walls'o'texts so let me shorten it up.

I dont think this system is good as it turns away newbie players. As someone who just started i dont have a chance to know the game enough so this 7.5% i lose atm are a lot specialy considering this is a very bugy beta phase. It should be different and made a bit more newbie friendy (not deleted) but going from normal and 0% to 7.5% and 15% is a lot.

Dying should matter and there should be a penalty but not like this. This system cant work on the long run if left unchanged. If they cant rework the system that would make some classes more fun as well as death undesirable and defence that would matter it should be made closer to having 2.5% loss after first 3 chapters, then for every next chapter 2.5% more until reaching the final 15%.

Again i made a wall'o'text ... sorry xD !

I don't agree that it turns away newbies because I think starting with 0% penalty and moving up in increments of 7.5% is sufficient to introduce them gently. However, I think something like the following could be an even better option if enough people are concerned about the impact on new players:

Normal:
Act I, II, III: 0% penalty
Cruel:
Act I : 2.5% penalty
Act II : 5% penalty
Act III: 7.5% penalty
Merciless:
Act I : 10% penalty
Act II : 15% penalty
Act III: 15% penalty (Going any higher would be excessive IMO, but Merciless should be tough on subpar builds IMO.)

I don't feel PoE has very strong class identity, but what counts as "fun" varies somewhat for person to person, so I'm curious as to what you're looking for and how you think it's related to the XP penalty when you say "If they cant rework the system that would make some classes more fun".

It turns away noobies because you only really complete your build at 80+ (at earliest). This isn't like D2, where your character build realistically finished around level 40-50, which was easy for any casual (or newbie) to accomplish

In PoE, your build can finish from anywhere between 60-100, and many people are going to get frustrated when their "sorcerer" or w/e is being built is not possible to achieve without getting frustrated and/or spending ridiculous amount of time

"

dashgalaxy86 wrote:

Death penalty for hardcore is being shipped off to default. It figures that default should have SOME penalty as well. Corpse runs are truly bad design. They're tedious and I have never had fun trekking through portals and waypoints to get to my corpse. It's also pointless if you have a team who can just TP you to the spot where you died. Wow, what a penalty that was.

Since there's no gold, they can't penalize that, either. And don't get me started on penalizing currency. Even portal scrolls and identify scrolls are precious to some people, but could you imagine if the game subtracted a chaos from your inventory on death?

Experience makes perfect sense. It hurts when it hits you. You just think "God, there goes an hour of play time" once you're at a higher level, but it also motivates you to be cautious and keeps you on your toes. If you have a good build and you are a good player, you can avoid death. If you don't have a good build then you reroll and try again. The other nice thing about the way they do experience is that you do not actually lose levels, so really it's not that big of a deal in the grand scheme.

I want real, viable proposals from those of you who want to change the system. One that hurts hard and keeps you on your toes as well as the current system, and one that makes sense in this game world with the hardcore, unforgiving vibe that PoE has. If you cannot handle a bit of XP loss on death, then my friends, this game is not for you. Move along.

Move along?

I wonder what the developers would really think of that suggest.

Why does dying have to have a penalty in all aspects of a game?

Why not have a league that does not have this?

Does it really change your fun knowing that some scrub like me beat the game playing in an easier league?

Why would you care if your league was designed the way it was the most fun for you?

I still fail to see why anyone needs a death penalty at all in every league.

Why does a game need to hurt hard and keep me on my toes? It is a game right? some real guy is not going to pop out and try to kill me irl I hope.