The -15% exp penalty is obnoxiously bad outdated design.

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Anomandaris wrote:

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ljubisa24 wrote:

Well i made some ok arguments but they all ended up in walls'o'texts so let me shorten it up.

I dont think this system is good as it turns away newbie players. As someone who just started i dont have a chance to know the game enough so this 7.5% i lose atm are a lot specialy considering this is a very bugy beta phase. It should be different and made a bit more newbie friendy (not deleted) but going from normal and 0% to 7.5% and 15% is a lot.

Dying should matter and there should be a penalty but not like this. This system cant work on the long run if left unchanged. If they cant rework the system that would make some classes more fun as well as death undesirable and defence that would matter it should be made closer to having 2.5% loss after first 3 chapters, then for every next chapter 2.5% more until reaching the final 15%.

Again i made a wall'o'text ... sorry xD !

I don't agree that it turns away newbies because I think starting with 0% penalty and moving up in increments of 7.5% is sufficient to introduce them gently. However, I think something like the following could be an even better option if enough people are concerned about the impact on new players:

Normal:
Act I, II, III: 0% penalty
Cruel:
Act I : 2.5% penalty
Act II : 5% penalty
Act III: 7.5% penalty
Merciless:
Act I : 10% penalty
Act II : 15% penalty
Act III: 15% penalty (Going any higher would be excessive IMO, but Merciless should be tough on subpar builds IMO.)

I don't feel PoE has very strong class identity, but what counts as "fun" varies somewhat for person to person, so I'm curious as to what you're looking for and how you think it's related to the XP penalty when you say "If they cant rework the system that would make some classes more fun".

Ye more then 15% would be way to much.

But at the point of Merciless Act II you would already imo be high enough not to be that big of a noob so the penalty wouldnt matter as much. A gradual increase would work much better then this atm. Maybe not 2-5-7 and maybe 2-4-6 8-10-12 but something like that.

Well when i said changing the system i ment making the game itself more mainstream i guess with classes that are straight forward like a real tanker (some aggresion skills/gems in the tree), healer/resser/teleporter or such. Yet i dont know the game enough yet to fully comment on any changes of this magnitude , yet. Or just adding gear repair/destruction upon death (and orbs) with a chance of a part of the gear being destroyed/lost instead of exp loss.

But making the game more mainstream aint what ppl here would like, i think?

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ljubisa24 wrote:

But making the game more mainstream aint what ppl here would like, i think?

Most definitely not. There are enough mainstream games out there (that are all exactly the same). We play this game because it is not those games. People that want mainstream, one size fits all type games have plenty of options. We don't have those options. This is most likely why people such as myself are so defensive about people wanting to turn this game into another mainstream style hand holding game.

Gotta ask. Why isn't just DYING, the fact that you FAILED, bad enough? Why must we masochistically pursue even MORE punishment, when the fact of the matter is, you DIED, because you MADE A MISTAKE.

To me, that's punishment enough.

For all you hardcore players out there offended by anything that smells like "mainstream" (whatever that means to you):

If you are so concerned about what is going on in the default league, aren't you failing at being hardcore by not concerning yourself with the hardcore league (where this isn't an issue at all)?

Why do you care that some people want to not lose hours of gameplay on their softcore builds for dying, especially when there are buggy/laggy ways to die still?

And why do you think that difficulty means having an XP penalty on death? Doesn't difficulty come from the fact that you're dying?

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thepmrc wrote:

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ljubisa24 wrote:

But making the game more mainstream aint what ppl here would like, i think?

Most definitely not. There are enough mainstream games out there (that are all exactly the same). We play this game because it is not those games. People that want mainstream, one size fits all type games have plenty of options. We don't have those options. This is most likely why people such as myself are so defensive about people wanting to turn this game into another mainstream style hand holding game.

I guess I fail to see why you can not have both.

What damage is done to the game you play( I assume Hardcore)if a new league is made that has no death penalty?

In fact by not having that option all you do is get people asking for changes to default league or hardcore nerfs since right now there is only two options.

Tossing casual or more mainstream players into a softcore or other named league and giving them the game they want helps protect your playstyle by more money flowing into the game developers hands.

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thepmrc wrote:

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ljubisa24 wrote:

But making the game more mainstream aint what ppl here would like, i think?

Most definitely not. There are enough mainstream games out there (that are all exactly the same). We play this game because it is not those games. People that want mainstream, one size fits all type games have plenty of options. We don't have those options. This is most likely why people such as myself are so defensive about people wanting to turn this game into another mainstream style hand holding game.

My god, you are making it sound like you are the last living species of your race

D2 was a very mainstream game, and was also considered hardcore, you can easily have both coincide with eachother

In any case, this game is hardly hardcore due to massive design/balance problems, if you want to go play a hardcore game, have a look at dota2 or something

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deteego wrote:

It turns away noobies because you only really complete your build at 80+ (at earliest). This isn't like D2, where your character build realistically finished around level 40-50, which was easy for any casual (or newbie) to accomplish

In PoE, your build can finish from anywhere between 60-100, and many people are going to get frustrated when their "sorcerer" or w/e is being built is not possible to achieve without getting frustrated and/or spending ridiculous amount of time

So what does the XP penalty have to do with that? It might add a bit of frustration for weaker builds, but otherwise it has nothing to do with the level your builds finish at. I hate to bring up L2P, but realistically if you want to get to that stage of the game (80+) you need to either understand the game fairly well or be carried by those who do. The penalty isn't an issue until you hit Cruel, and even a subpar build probably won't suffer for it until most of the way through Act 2 Cruel. Anyone who gets that far isn't a newbie anymore in my eyes.

Bear in mind the devs like to "encourage" people to reroll characters. How encouraged players actually feel is up for debate.

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ljubisa24 wrote:

But making the game more mainstream aint what ppl here would like, i think?

It's not what the devs have wanted so far, and it's not what a fairly vocal chunk of beta players want. Note: I am interpreting "more mainstream" as making the changes to classes ljubisa24 mentioned (which would bring PoE closer to various other games), not as achieving widespread popularity in general.

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Nagisawa wrote:

Gotta ask. Why isn't just DYING, the fact that you FAILED, bad enough? Why must we masochistically pursue even MORE punishment, when the fact of the matter is, you DIED, because you MADE A MISTAKE.

To me, that's punishment enough.

Does your character really die if his HP drops to zero and he immediately respawns as if nothing had happened? Perhaps he just passes out and wakes up at the Pokemon centre...

My point is that without a tangible in-game penalty, death has no weight. HC is obviously a good example of the opposite. Some would say getting back to whatever area you died in (particularly if it was a boss fight) is annoying enough, but I don't agree.

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tackle70 wrote:

And why do you think that difficulty means having an XP penalty on death? Doesn't difficulty come from the fact that you're dying?

Death is surely a consequence of the player's failure to overcome difficulty, not the definition of difficulty. What actually happens when a player dies in default, though, needs to actually have some in-game effect, lest it become hollow and meaningless (and thus have no relevance to gameplay whatsoever). What effect it should have is one topic being discussed here.

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Anomandaris wrote:

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deteego wrote:

It turns away noobies because you only really complete your build at 80+ (at earliest). This isn't like D2, where your character build realistically finished around level 40-50, which was easy for any casual (or newbie) to accomplish

In PoE, your build can finish from anywhere between 60-100, and many people are going to get frustrated when their "sorcerer" or w/e is being built is not possible to achieve without getting frustrated and/or spending ridiculous amount of time

So what does the XP penalty have to do with that? It might add a bit of frustration for weaker builds, but otherwise it has nothing to do with the level your builds finish at. I hate to bring up L2P, but realistically if you want to get to that stage of the game (80+) you need to either understand the game fairly well or be carried by those who do. The penalty isn't an issue until you hit Cruel, and even a subpar build probably won't suffer for it until most of the way through Act 2 Cruel. Anyone who gets that far isn't a newbie anymore in my eyes.

Im sorry, but L2P has nothing to do with this argument. If you watch the higher level players and streams, the only "good" players are the ones using the FOTM builds. The game in its current state has very little skill or tactical requirement

The only thing required to be "pro" in this game is to have

1. Time
2. Use an OP fotm build

The people who have issues are progressing are the people that are attempting to build a different character, and due to flaws in this game (like the one in this thread), those builds are unviable.

In fact, the number of viable builds I can barely fit on my hand (slight variations of a common build doesn't count as a new build). So much for customization

The game in its current state is not hardcore at all. Hardcore means if you are bad, you won't progress at all. You can be an average player and easily get to 80+ by just following a build from someone like Kripp and playing 6+ hours a day

Rerolling in this game is a joke anyways due to how long it takes for builds to complete

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Anomandaris wrote:

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tackle70 wrote:

And why do you think that difficulty means having an XP penalty on death? Doesn't difficulty come from the fact that you're dying?

Death is surely a consequence of the player's failure to overcome difficulty, not the definition of difficulty. What actually happens when a player dies in default, though, needs to actually have some in-game effect, lest it become hollow and meaningless (and thus have no relevance to gameplay whatsoever). What effect it should have is one topic being discussed here.

I never said it didn't - I've actually posted I think the only change needed is to make the XP penalty based on earned XP for your level not total needed XP for the next level.

But I'm seeing a lot of people equating the idea of "lower XP penalty" with "lower difficulty" and I don't understand that.

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deteego wrote:

Im sorry, but L2P has nothing to do with this argument. If you watch the higher level players and streams, the only "good" players are the ones using the FOTM builds. The game in its current state has very little skill environment

You're using some arbitrary definition of good here, one which seems to only encompass the physical aspects of the game...

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deteego wrote:

The people who have issues are progressing are the people that are attempting to build a different character, and due to flaws in this game (like the one in this thread), those builds are unviable.

How are those builds unviable due to the XP penalty? If a build would be viable at say level 85 but couldn't actually reach level 85 without dying over and over hundreds of times, how is that actually "viable" in any way? Not to mention, the XP penalty does not prevent progression if you play around it, it just slows bad builds (indicating to the player that they need to change it up a bit). Perceived lack of variety of viable builds has nothing to do with this.

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deteego wrote:

The game in its current state is not hardcore at all. Hardcore means if you are bad, you won't progress at all. You can be an average player and easily get to 80+ by just following a build from someone like Kripp and playing 6+ hours a day

Thanks for telling use what hardcore means to you. What does bad mean to you?

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deteego wrote:

Rerolling in this game is a joke anyways due to how long it takes for builds to complete

Which has next to nothing to do with the XP penalty on death.

Anyway, I have to go to work, so TTYL.