The -15% exp penalty is obnoxiously bad outdated design.

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humakti wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

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ljubisa24 wrote:

But making the game more mainstream aint what ppl here would like, i think?

Most definitely not. There are enough mainstream games out there (that are all exactly the same). We play this game because it is not those games. People that want mainstream, one size fits all type games have plenty of options. We don't have those options. This is most likely why people such as myself are so defensive about people wanting to turn this game into another mainstream style hand holding game.

I guess I fail to see why you can not have both.

What damage is done to the game you play( I assume Hardcore)if a new league is made that has no death penalty?

In fact by not having that option all you do is get people asking for changes to default league or hardcore nerfs since right now there is only two options.

Tossing casual or more mainstream players into a softcore or other named league and giving them the game they want helps protect your playstyle by more money flowing into the game developers hands.

You could have it both!

And i dont think its way to much to ask for. I thought that was what i am applying for when i joined the "normal" and not hardcore league at the start.

I wanted a more casual style of playing then i joined this league.

What would be the actual loss of having the hardcore league for hardcore players and "normal" league for normal more casual players? Cant you just lose the death penalty in a league u would call "casual" and make some kind of a contest between leagues as endgame content? It wouldnt remove the death penalty for those that want it and it would remove it for those that want it removed.

The 3 leagues having interleague PvP events then league top 6 players slugging it out in some kind of deathmatch/arena/tournament ?

Again problem in all of this is clear. What kind of a game do the developers/admins want to show here? I wouldnt care if i played a casual league with little less exp and/or drops as long as i would get some stuff in return.

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Anomandaris wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Im sorry, but L2P has nothing to do with this argument. If you watch the higher level players and streams, the only "good" players are the ones using the FOTM builds. The game in its current state has very little skill environment

You're using some arbitrary definition of good here, one which seems to only encompass the physical aspects of the game...

If being pro means following a fotm of the month build, and L2P means the opposite (which is not knowing the build), then yes, that can be your definition of L2P

Its a pretty damn stupid definition

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Anomandaris wrote:

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deteego wrote:

The people who have issues are progressing are the people that are attempting to build a different character, and due to flaws in this game (like the one in this thread), those builds are unviable.

How are those builds unviable due to the XP penalty? If a build would be viable at say level 85 but couldn't actually reach level 85 without dying over and over hundreds of times, how is that actually "viable" in any way? Not to mention, the XP penalty does not prevent progression if you play around it, it just slows bad builds (indicating to the player that they need to change it up a bit). Perceived lack of variety of viable builds has nothing to do with this.

Because different builds have different weakness's

Some builds farm farster (glass cannon dps builds)
Some builds get exp faster (fast moving builds that progress through levels easily)
Some builds get gear faster (really fast moving builds)
Some builds are safer (tanky builds)

The exp penalty means the builds that fall into the "Some builds are safer" category are massively favored. One of TL's best changes to the ARPG system was to allow you to choose your death penalty, it helped even out the whole

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Anomandaris wrote:

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deteego wrote:

The game in its current state is not hardcore at all. Hardcore means if you are bad, you won't progress at all. You can be an average player and easily get to 80+ by just following a build from someone like Kripp and playing 6+ hours a day

Thanks for telling use what hardcore means to you. What does bad mean to you?

Bad means doing something stupid like building a tree that has absolutely no synergy. The amount of people in this category is miniscule. Most of people that come up with builds provide builds that have very good synergy, it just so happens those builds are not viable due to game design decisions (including this one)

Bad is an overgeneric term (just like L2P) that elitists through around to try and granstand their arguments

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Anomandaris wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Rerolling in this game is a joke anyways due to how long it takes for builds to complete

Which has next to nothing to do with the XP penalty on death.

Anyway, I have to go to work, so TTYL.

Yes it does, because certain builds are more likely to die (and its not due to builds being bade, its due to basic game mechanics, every ARPG has this). The XP penalty is harming certain builds moreso than others

Do tell ...

Has the expirience loss been like this since the start or was it made higher / lower over time ?

Or changed in any way possible.

Again any place to see the current server stats like players online and such ?

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deteego wrote:

Bad means doing something stupid like building a tree that has absolutely no synergy. The amount of people in this category is miniscule. Most of people that come up with builds provide builds that have very good synergy, it just so happens those builds are not viable due to game design decisions (including this one)

There are exactly ZERO builds that are made not viable due to the death penalty. The fact that they are dying too much to progress shows you that they are not viable builds, however the penalty for said deaths has no bearing on their viability.

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ljubisa24 wrote:

Do tell ...

Has the expirience loss been like this since the start or was it made higher / lower over time ?

Or changed in any way possible.

Again any place to see the current server stats like players online and such ?

It has been lowered.

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thepmrc wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Bad means doing something stupid like building a tree that has absolutely no synergy. The amount of people in this category is miniscule. Most of people that come up with builds provide builds that have very good synergy, it just so happens those builds are not viable due to game design decisions (including this one)

There are exactly ZERO builds that are made not viable due to the death penalty. The fact that they are dying too much to progress shows you that they are not viable builds, however the penalty for said deaths has no bearing on their viability.

Right, so GGG acknowledging that melees have massive issues with current builds is completely contrary to this statement?

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deteego wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Bad means doing something stupid like building a tree that has absolutely no synergy. The amount of people in this category is miniscule. Most of people that come up with builds provide builds that have very good synergy, it just so happens those builds are not viable due to game design decisions (including this one)

There are exactly ZERO builds that are made not viable due to the death penalty. The fact that they are dying too much to progress shows you that they are not viable builds, however the penalty for said deaths has no bearing on their viability.

Right, so GGG acknowledging that melees have massive issues with current builds is completely contrary to this statement?

Melee viability has NOTHING to do with the death penalty. Remove the death penalty and ranged is still better than melee. Get it?

Besides Melee is perfectly viable, my main is a 2H melee marauder. He doesn't clear as fast as my Ranger that is much lower level, but he doesn't die as much....

Except there's melee players running maps. Does this mean they don't.need a buff? No.

Does this mean that the death penalty is hindering their progression? No.

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thepmrc wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Bad means doing something stupid like building a tree that has absolutely no synergy. The amount of people in this category is miniscule. Most of people that come up with builds provide builds that have very good synergy, it just so happens those builds are not viable due to game design decisions (including this one)

There are exactly ZERO builds that are made not viable due to the death penalty. The fact that they are dying too much to progress shows you that they are not viable builds, however the penalty for said deaths has no bearing on their viability.

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ljubisa24 wrote:

Do tell ...

Has the expirience loss been like this since the start or was it made higher / lower over time ?

Or changed in any way possible.

Again any place to see the current server stats like players online and such ?

It has been lowered.

Lol what was it before if it got lowered ? O.o

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thepmrc wrote:

Melee viability has NOTHING to do with the death penalty. Remove the death penalty and ranged is still better than melee. Get it?

Besides Melee is perfectly viable, my main is a 2H melee marauder. He doesn't clear as fast as my Ranger that is much lower level, but he doesn't die as much....

Melee's die more often than ranged. This has always been the case for ARGPS, its been in D2, its been in TL, and its been in D3 (particularly when you get to bigger difficulty levels)

So here you are, on Merciless doing all the high end maps at level 77. Now, you beeping along, all happy and hardcore like (but not playing Hardcore) and bang, you die. Whatever reason, you are deads.

OK, now you lose 15% XP. No problem, you go again, maybe another map, or whatever, but you're back on track and in less than an hour, you die again. You haven't even been able to get all the XP you lost from the last one, or even if you do.

In other words, you're stagnating. You're not increasing, and you're not ever going to hit the cap.

So I guess my question is this:

What does a Death Penalty bring to the game in the name of Fun?

As I currently have no answer to this, I would like someone, anyone, to answer that, without going 'newb vs. hardcore!' Just answer on a gameplay standpoint for everyone, from new to the hardest of the hard, what does it bring in the name of FUN?