Acrobatics Whats It Good For?
" Nothing prevents you from getting all of the defenses you've described here at the same time. Another thing I want to clear up is the following: " Here you have made a calculation assuming that evasion is a probability. But this is completely wrong in all cases but the very first hit! If you have say 50% chance to evade against a particular enemy that means he will hit you every other attack, and whenever the evasion check fails the dodge/block will be calculated. In a sequence of 10 attacks only 5 will result in a roll for block/dodge. This rewards getting really high evasion which isn't all that hard with the help of blind and enfeeble. You do still need some base evasion to really get the best returns though. | |
"Actually armour's eHP gain starts dropping dramatically after a certain point until you reach a second value where it begins rising again. But that's because of how the DR calculates. An evader is going to be using AA, they may be using MoM depending on their feelings about auras (and lack thereof), and they should always be using at least three endurance charges. EK and similar phys damage spells are mitigated fine by MoM, so really the evader just wants moar avoidance in order to reach that tasty never-get-hit status, and conversion of their avoidance to spell avoidance where appropriate and possible. Trying to get armour is wasted effort if you're focusing on Evasion (because the possible armour to gain is near worthless). Doubly do if you have acrobatics. If you need phys spike defense you use ICall. IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir Last edited by Autocthon on Jul 28, 2014, 7:24:59 AM
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" WRONG. firstly, yes different %chance to avoid defenses are multiplicative with eachother, too bad all percentages are actually number less than 1, and when u multiply with something less than 1 the result goes down, not up (each defenses effectiveness). its not multiplicative for eHP, eHP is calculated after all defenses are tallied up, the only time it is, is when you're reaching close to 100% damage reduction of a certain type. the very reason GGG have given caps/effective caps to things such as block and evasion, is that stacking one type is much much more effective and could get you to 100% so quickly. they are forcing you to do it inefficiently, because the difference between mitigating the 98th % of dmg and 99th % is exponentially more important. secondly, i can give you a very easy example as to when 50% dodge will NOT = +100% eHP. you already gave an example, such as when it is the "last 1%" for total chance to avoid damage, then it is much much much higher than +100% eHP. Now here is an example of when it is much less: character has 25% (0.25) block and 25% (0.25) chance to evade. for a total of 43.75% chance to avoid damage (178% eHP) character then gets 50% (0.5) dodge. this gives 53.12% chance to avoid damage, giving you a total of 213% eHP. so the added 50% dodge only gave a difference of +35% eHP in this instance. Last edited by Float on Jul 28, 2014, 8:06:09 AM
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One great threat for eva/dodge/block is obviously DoT... Im playing this type of defensive setup and this kind of damage is the most dangerous one.
Bleeding (especially cor. blood) / chaos clouds / burning ground (the kind of doing several k of fire dmg) But its true, that u only have to rise ur life pool to avoid one-hits otherwise, cause u have always enough time between hits to regenrate even with slow-working flasks... i have 30-40% chance to avoid / 40/46 dodge / 60/64 block at 4.3k life ---- its a great defense even though i am using cyclone rather often to produce power charges. Antother thing nobody addressed is the drawback on armour and ES (especially vs bleeding the armour loss is quite hard). I think EB works perfectly fine with that drawback since the ES isnt halfed before converted into mana. So the ES drawback isnt there and using rathpith is a pretty nice option since one gets spell block (not loosing ability to block attacks), 30% base block (which is 6% higher than saffels) and 10% increased life (sadly sounds greater than it is really...) Every defense setup seems to have advantages and drawback. P.S: The eHP is a nice number for general valueing defense, but for eva it dont works well because the incoming damage is discrete and therefore the concept of eHP fails. P.P.S The entropy of evasion is the key feature which makes dodge block so effective. The calculation needs to be done more carefully here. P.P.P.S: and btw all whats discussed here is which looks nicer: x or 1/x or 1-x... think about it ;) IGN: Surak Methred Wrathclaws Boxender_Gladiator Dunkler_Beschwörer Lady_Discharge Last edited by keeper190786 on Jul 28, 2014, 7:48:17 AM
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"Float you're really not understanding the concept of linearity. Just because the "total avoidance" goes down a lesser magnitude does not mean it's less effective. It's equally effective at increasing your relative eHP and more effective at increasing your total eHP the more defenses you stack no matter how many or what value. Yes in some cases it would be more effective to invest those points to the first defense (primarily in the case of block and dodge, evasion follows a linear curve rather than an accelerating returns curve). However just because adding adding 50% block to 75% evade only gives you "12.5%" avoidance doesn't mean you've lost any amount of effectiveness or efficiency from teh stat (you have not in the least) "That's not what he meant when he said 50% dodge is always +100% eHP. He meant that HAVING 50% dodge always means having 100% more eHP than not having it. Not getting to 50% dodge, not gaining 50% evade, having 50% dodge (and he's correct). Also you fdid your eHP calculation incorrectly. .75 (25% evade) *.75 (25% Block) * .5 (50% Dodge) = .28125 (chance to be hit) That's 356% eHP. Proofread your math. @keeper: eHP is valid for evade/dodge/block if all damage is of a reasonable value, and represents the average damage you can take over a period of infinite time. Generally speaking evade and armour in this game are mechanically interchangeable. Also armour does nothing versus the doTs you have listed either, they're weak equally to those damage sources. evasions only real weakness (realtive to armour) is a few physical damage spells, but they can be worked around with a few methods. Armour on the other hand is weak (relative to evasion) to added elemntal damage on attacks. Also workarounds. IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir
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you're right, i forgot to add the block back on at the end. but ur equation doesn't work either because it doesn't account for roll order. block comes after, so instead of the usual 1x (or 0.95*x if you take into account the natural dodge chance) for block chance it becomes (1-(1-0.25)*(1-0.5))*x. (1-0.25)*(1-0.5) is the chance to dodge/evade. (1-(1-0.25)*(1-0.5))*0.25) is the new chance to block. these amounts have to then be added because one is rolled, then the other. so;
= (1-((1-0.25)*(1-0.5)) + (1-(1-0.25)*(1-0.5))*0.25) = 0.625 + 0.15625 = 0.7812 therefor, 78.12% chance to avoid damage. btw this equation 100% takes into account an entropy based system, please read the wiki pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Evasion Last edited by Float on Jul 28, 2014, 8:40:12 AM
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" What? Last edited by Ceryneian on Jul 28, 2014, 8:44:47 AM
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"You're not understanding that the roll order doesn't matter. You evade 25% of teh time so you have +33% eHP (133%eHP) 25% of teh time when you don't evade you get another +33% eHP (178%eHP) When you've neither dodged nor blocked you get another +100%eHP (356% eHP) Total eHP = (1/Chance to be Hit) where chance to be hit = (1-Evade)(1-Dodge)(1-Block) The presence or absence of entropy is meaningless, order of operation is meaningless. Regardless your math remaining wrong because you don't go from ~44% avoid to ~50% avoid you go form ~44% avoid to ~77% avoid. Therefore going from ~180% eHP to ~360% eHP, not the 170% to 210% you stated. The only time you would lose any total eHP is if block/dodge could proc on an evaded hit with an associated cooldown or entropy value (they can't and they don't have either anyway). Edit: Order of operations and relative chances matters in one other instance, the determination of stun. Only one of the three mechanics allows you to be stunned, and it occurs last. If you want to reduce stun chance you want to have the highest Evade/Dodge you can before increasing your block value because you take larger chunks of damage the more blocks you make relative to dodge the more often you're stunned. However that's immaterial in determining eHP and actually increases synergy of the three defenses not decreases. IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir Last edited by Autocthon on Jul 28, 2014, 8:49:10 AM
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Like mentioned eHP is pretty much the wrong measurement for this kind of discussion since the "damage taken event" is rather rare and therefore average will be more meaningless.
What u want to describe is how viable u can manually avoid to be hit by "one-shots" and whats the time between two hits. There are so many dependences of other variables, like range of attack and so on. The entropy-counter resets after a short period. So first of all u have to differentiate between frequent incoming attacks and occasional attacks. then between ranged attacks and melee attacks (cause of ondars guile). Then u have to handle each event of dodge/block as doubling the evasion time since u can only dodge/block if the entropy-counter is resetted. So what u really have to do is bayesian statistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_statistics So please for the sake of clarity, stop discussing on wrong math. " @ First paragraph: Yes, exactly. its a so called mean-field-property. But its not a good measurement for actual time-local survivalbility. But since evasion is much more related to rare events its much less well described by the eHP-value @ Second paragraph: armor helps much versus bleeding, which is the by far most dangerous DoT for evasion based chars. IGN: Surak Methred Wrathclaws Boxender_Gladiator Dunkler_Beschwörer Lady_Discharge Last edited by keeper190786 on Jul 28, 2014, 9:20:50 AM
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" @First: Evasion has essential immunity to attack crits and trivial eHP difference vs elemental compared to armour. Armour is far mroe likely to die to a crit (or similar rare event) than Evasion given similar effective mitigation and HP (which can be assumed due to trivial differences in HP under reasonable circumstances) @Second: " Straight off the wiki. So no. Armour does nothing against bleeds that are not puncture. And puncture can be evaded/dodged/blocked and is non-stacking. Nevermind the ubiquitous staunching flask which trivializes bleeds for everyone. There are very few cases wherein simple eHP models fail to reasonably describe survival of evasion characters. "Evasion is a non-probability patterned system. It isn't based on any for of probability and is mechanically and functionally identical to a damage reduction effect under all reasonable circumstances. So no you don't need to model it with bayesian statistics, and a simple eHP model provides a reasonable representation. The only time evasion sinks into chance territory is when you try to game it, which you only do if you're an idiot who decided to skip into content you don;t have the gear for. Edit again: Additionally, differing accuracy across monsters has no appreciable effect on relative hit rates. Lots of low accuracy monster do NOT increase the chance that some higher accuracy monsters will hit you, it only has an effect on the distribution and that effect is trivial at best. Nevermind that the entropy counter is not short enough to have an effect on frequent and infrequent attackers. IGN - PlutoChthon, Talvathir Last edited by Autocthon on Jul 28, 2014, 9:39:46 AM
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