Acrobatics Whats It Good For?

"

Float wrote:

"

Autocthon wrote:

You could have 75% block, this would give you 400% eHP

(For reference you have 100% eHP with neither of them)

But if you take that 75% block and add it to that 80% evade you'll have 2000% eHP. If you notice you didn't get 500%+400%=900%, you got 500%*400%=2000%. The higher your Evade/block/dodge gets the harder it is to get it even higher, but the more effective other defenses become at getting you total eHP.

What if you had 80% evade and managed to blind your enemy? Well now they have 95% miss chance (you have 95% evade against them) so you have 2000% eHP. Now add that 75% block in and you have 8000% eHP. That's 75% block is no longer just worth 400% (well +300%) eHP, it's worth 6000% eHP.

ok wait, i see whats happening here. this ONLY works with big numbers. and thats a big problem.

if you have 25% block chance you have 133% eHP
if you have 50% block chance you have 200% eHP
if you have 75% block chance you have 400% eHP

if you have 25% block chance and 25% evasion you have a total of 43.75% avoid damage, thus 177% eHP. Much less than the straight up 50% block chance's eHP.

The reason your numbers were expanding so rapidly is because at such high avoidance ratings, just 1% can increase ur eHP by so much. but this has nothing to do with using a variety of defenses. look, if your shield block chance was not capped, your eHP could reach infinite very quickly.

what you're not keeping in mind is that you're not PAYING anything for 25% block and 25% evasion. White gear gets you there. The more defenses yo uegt high the more effective your defenses become at increasing your HP in a linear fashion. It's as imple as that.

Hell just putting on a white shield by the time you're gotten to 40-50% evasion is already giving you a ridiculous additional amount of eHP relative to not having the evade when you put the shield on. The point is what you're gaining by the time you get to a given aggregate defense. Capping block isn't particularly onerous, dodge is always worth taking if you're using evasion, and getting evasion high isn't as hard as you might think it is (oh look I used blind, now I have 76.25% evade against that enemy).

"

Autocthon wrote:

"

Float wrote:

"

Autocthon wrote:

You could have 75% block, this would give you 400% eHP

(For reference you have 100% eHP with neither of them)

But if you take that 75% block and add it to that 80% evade you'll have 2000% eHP. If you notice you didn't get 500%+400%=900%, you got 500%*400%=2000%. The higher your Evade/block/dodge gets the harder it is to get it even higher, but the more effective other defenses become at getting you total eHP.

What if you had 80% evade and managed to blind your enemy? Well now they have 95% miss chance (you have 95% evade against them) so you have 2000% eHP. Now add that 75% block in and you have 8000% eHP. That's 75% block is no longer just worth 400% (well +300%) eHP, it's worth 6000% eHP.

ok wait, i see whats happening here. this ONLY works with big numbers. and thats a big problem.

if you have 25% block chance you have 133% eHP
if you have 50% block chance you have 200% eHP
if you have 75% block chance you have 400% eHP

if you have 25% block chance and 25% evasion you have a total of 43.75% avoid damage, thus 177% eHP. Much less than the straight up 50% block chance's eHP.

The reason your numbers were expanding so rapidly is because at such high avoidance ratings, just 1% can increase ur eHP by so much. but this has nothing to do with using a variety of defenses. look, if your shield block chance was not capped, your eHP could reach infinite very quickly.

what you're not keeping in mind is that you're not PAYING anything for 25% block and 25% evasion. White gear gets you there. The more defenses yo uegt high the more effective your defenses become at increasing your HP in a linear fashion. It's as imple as that.

Hell just putting on a white shield by the time you're gotten to 40-50% evasion is already giving you a ridiculous additional amount of eHP relative to not having the evade when you put the shield on. The point is what you're gaining by the time you get to a given aggregate defense. Capping block isn't particularly onerous, dodge is always worth taking if you're using evasion, and getting evasion high isn't as hard as you might think it is (oh look I used blind, now I have 76.25% evade against that enemy).

that's a good point. it's kind of the same as +max resistance. once you start getting into the 85+ area each percent is increasing your eHP by tonnes. it just seems smarter, though, in this particular instance to discontinue the avoidance theme once you have reached an opportune threshold and go to either endurance charges, armour, AA, MoM, coil, or +max ele resist because spell block and spell dodge are really the only ways to give an exact counterpart to the block/eva/dodge theme. and it is not easy to get anywhere close to an overall +85% damage reduction from spells. maybe i'm just too worried about physical spells, but that's reasonable. ggg are bringing out new content all the time and phys spells may see more light in the future. the defenses i've suggested still contribute to the eHP against attacks in some way, and thus will exponentially increase your returns from evasion/dodge/block and whatever the other defenses are, but without the exact same weaknesses. nonetheless, before the cap of difficulty is reached where you are forced to change defenses in the eva/dodge/block scheme, stacking just one of them IS better.

i didn't read through this whole thread, but we can't neglect ranged characters either, who have a very difficult time gaining block, and absolutely cannot max it - it is very beneficial for them as well.

however i find the main benefit to getting acrobatics is because its en route to phase acrobatics, which is absolutely amazing in conjunction with atziri steps.

acrobatics or not, end game you shouldn't be having much difficulty against any physical damage. with cast on damage taken, endurance charges and immortal call set ups, and most tanky builds running max block etc, physical damage is not going to be your main concern on end game, its going to be spell dmg. phase acrobatics adds an entire significant level of mitigation which, in my opinion, is too good to pass up.


now-a-days with vaal grace and a unique block flask defensive layers are very easy to stack without the essential keynodes once required. acrobatics has fallen down in the priority list but phase acro remains extremely high.

"

Float wrote:

that's a good point. it's kind of the same as +max resistance. once you start getting into the 85+ area each percent is increasing your eHP by tonnes. it just seems smarter, though, in this particular instance to discontinue the avoidance theme once you have reached an opportune threshold and go to either endurance charges, armour, AA, MoM, coil, or +max ele resist because spell block and spell dodge are really the only ways to give an exact counterpart to the block/eva/dodge theme. and it is not easy to get anywhere close to an overall +85% damage reduction from spells. maybe i'm just too worried about physical spells, but that's reasonable. ggg are bringing out new content all the time and phys spells may see more light in the future. the defenses i've suggested still contribute to the eHP against attacks in some way, and thus will exponentially increase your returns from evasion/dodge/block and whatever the other defenses are, but without the exact same weaknesses. nonetheless, before the cap of difficulty is reached where you are forced to change defenses in the eva/dodge/block scheme, stacking just one of them IS better.

Resistances cap at 75%, and getting there is trivial. Anyone serious about getting a bit higher has a myriad number of ways to do so. Elemtal purities give an upwards of 5% more max resistances, 1H has access to powerful shields which can increase resistances. You can net 3% across gear with some lucky corruption. Saffels is ridiculously powerful.

Just a single item (Lazwhar) can bring your elemental mitigation to the 85% range, or phase acrobatics (also immediately brings total mitigation to 85%). Essentially stacking mitigation against spells is so trivial they have to be brokenly damaging against anyone with less than stacked resistances.

At the end of the day stacking Evade+Block+Dodge gives the best mitigation in the game against attacks. Of course you'll ALSO have spell mitigation in the 80%+ range because that's trivial in terms of total mitigation to achieve. Raw resistance on spells is easily raised to 80% or so in the first place, and of course you can run flasks for instant 85% and free resists.

"

Autocthon wrote:

"

Float wrote:

that's a good point. it's kind of the same as +max resistance. once you start getting into the 85+ area each percent is increasing your eHP by tonnes. it just seems smarter, though, in this particular instance to discontinue the avoidance theme once you have reached an opportune threshold and go to either endurance charges, armour, AA, MoM, coil, or +max ele resist because spell block and spell dodge are really the only ways to give an exact counterpart to the block/eva/dodge theme. and it is not easy to get anywhere close to an overall +85% damage reduction from spells. maybe i'm just too worried about physical spells, but that's reasonable. ggg are bringing out new content all the time and phys spells may see more light in the future. the defenses i've suggested still contribute to the eHP against attacks in some way, and thus will exponentially increase your returns from evasion/dodge/block and whatever the other defenses are, but without the exact same weaknesses. nonetheless, before the cap of difficulty is reached where you are forced to change defenses in the eva/dodge/block scheme, stacking just one of them IS better.

Resistances cap at 75%, and getting there is trivial. Anyone serious about getting a bit higher has a myriad number of ways to do so. Elemtal purities give an upwards of 5% more max resistances, 1H has access to powerful shields which can increase resistances. You can net 3% across gear with some lucky corruption. Saffels is ridiculously powerful.

Just a single item (Lazwhar) can bring your elemental mitigation to the 85% range, or phase acrobatics (also immediately brings total mitigation to 85%). Essentially stacking mitigation against spells is so trivial they have to be brokenly damaging against anyone with less than stacked resistances.

At the end of the day stacking Evade+Block+Dodge gives the best mitigation in the game against attacks. Of course you'll ALSO have spell mitigation in the 80%+ range because that's trivial in terms of total mitigation to achieve. Raw resistance on spells is easily raised to 80% or so in the first place, and of course you can run flasks for instant 85% and free resists.

yep i agree, but maybe phys spells will always remain difficult for the avoidance themed defender to mitigate easily. phase acrobatics and atziri step are synergistic and frankly overpowered. nonetheless, spell block and spell dodge suffer the same inefficiencies at low levels when used in conjunction. watch this, if u have 40% spell block and and 46% spell dodge, and you get attacked by ethereal knives or bear trap (your evasion and max resists do nothing), the mitigation will be only 67.6% (309% eHP) which is dangerously low. also, blind wont help and you have no armour. but the simple answer is - ethereal knives and bear trap are very rare in this game. well i hope not forever, otherwise this build is overpowered because its crazy strong against all other damage types. at the end of the day, ev/dodge/block are just as effective with each other as 'most' other defense layers (e charge and armour are better than most layers). what i'm arguing is that at that point where you need to get a new layer, taking into account the path of least resistance of course, it seems slightly better to get AA, MoM, l.coil, e charge to get ur eHP on the phys side of attacks up, and +max resists to get the ele side of attacks up. my reasoning is that these defense types still boost ur overall eHP exponentially in exactly the same way stacking ev/block/dodge, but without the exact same weaknesses, that is bear trap and ethereal knives, and ele spells. i guess what i'm saying is you're over-defending against the exact same area, and neglecting other damage forms slightly. so if i had evasion character and acrobatics was a bit of a trek, i would probly be slightly more inclined to invest in mana/eb for AA and MoM or more DPS for life leech. of course, some arguments have been made about an over-abundance of resources and available nodes and you should just take it cuz there's nowhere else reasonable to go on the tree after a certain level, well if you are in that position then yes of course take the dodge lol. i'm strictly talking about times when a decision has to be made, when you have options. in that situation, i'm not saying dont take dodge, i'm saying take it LAST. on the flip side, if you are carrying a bow or 2H weapon, you might want to take it very very early. but remember, before reaching difficulty caps, a variety of layers does NOT give more eHP than just stacking one of them, except for in the case of armour.

Come on float break up your wall of text somewhere. Use the enter key. For someone claiming to know much about evasion/dodge/block in this game you seem to know nothing about writing coherently.

Make it easier to read for people coming here looking for wisdom. Thank you.
Ifeveryonewaswritinglikethisitwouldbeapaintobrowsethroughtheseforums.

I see so many people misinterpreting diminishing returns.

It seems that people basically think that increasing dodge from 0->10 is sme as good as 10->20.

People state that stacking evasion, dodge, and block is not smart as it does "block itself" (same roll of different kinds of damage mitigation)

But thats not true. If you have 40% dodge, its a STRAIGHT 40% damage reduction (vs attacks) or a relative +66,7% EHP.

And it does not matter how much evasion or block you have.

Each of the chance based damage mitigation is a FACTOR of +%EHP, thus stacking them is of a multiplicative nature.

This finally results in numbers like:

50% evade and 50% dodge. which result in a 75% chance to avoid damage.

There is a common misconception of how these numbers stack

75% chance to avoid damage is DOUBLE as good as 50% chance to avoid.

Usually those chance numbers stack to ~80% and there it seems that increasing the chance has minor effekt.(for evasion * dodge * block)

BUT, the higher the initial % number, the BETTER additional 1% become.

Just take this example:

What gives more EHP?

0%->1% or 99%->100%?

You see, the "last 1%" has infinite usefulness.

So:

In terms of EHP it does not matter if you stack different kinds of %chance based damage reductions as each of them is MULTIPLICATIVE(for EHP)

Basically it does not matter what kind of defense you have:

50% Dodge will ALWAYS increase your current EHP by +100%.(no matter how much evasion or block you have)

"

Float wrote:

text

I don't think I'm going to read this. ;___;

Anyways, your logic with stacking only one being "more effective" is flawed. all that matters is effective hp, and getting block/evasion/dodge all together (mathematically) adds up just right.

You just need to keep in mind that evasion has its diminishing returns, thus making it less effective when stacking more. You can't stack dodge for endless time, and only remaining defensive stat that is left is evasion, so stacking it just helps.

Block might be part of discussion, because getting low amount of block doesn't help much, but again, you can't stack dodge and evasion endlessly, thus block help. Diminishing returns and simple limits causes getting all 3 to be effective.

"

kompaniet wrote:

Come on float break up your wall of text somewhere. Use the enter key. For someone claiming to know much about evasion/dodge/block in this game you seem to know nothing about writing coherently.

Make it easier to read for people coming here looking for wisdom. Thank you.
Ifeveryonewaswritinglikethisitwouldbeapaintobrowsethroughtheseforums.

The guy before you writes a wall of text and the guy after you makes every sentence a paragraph. Video games don't require any background in writing, so that's what you're going to get. You just have to deal with it. All you can really do is skip posts that are painful to read and move on to better things.