Final feedback as I uninstall

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Mathlete wrote:
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BackwoodsS wrote:
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Mathlete wrote:
If you weren't having fun, why did you continue playing?


Let him have his moment


I honestly don't mean to devalue his feelings at all; it's just something I've noticed more and more lately with quite a few different games I frequent: players quit after feeling they've wasted a lot of hours doing something they didn't find enjoyable.

Now, I also realize he didn't say 100% of the time spent wasn't fun, but for me, the moment I'm not having fun anymore, I move to something else for a bit, since doing otherwise feels counter-intuitive to me. I cannot imagine spending hundreds of hours doing something I don't find enjoyable, which is why I'm curious about what the motivation to continue playing was.

I realize my question could've been misconstrued as rhetorical; I genuinely want to hear what kept him going.

I don't think many people have fun every single moment they're playing a game (unless you're autistic and enjoy grinding), it's more about the "fun spikes" (that is, when you get a great item, when you defeat a boss, when you level up, etc) while the rest of the time is just trying to reach that next "fun spike".
If everyone stopped playing a game the instant they stopped having fun then nobody would get past loading screens.
"Of course we balance knowing players will Alt-F4 out of there."
- Qarl
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Deankar wrote:
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Mathlete wrote:
"
BackwoodsS wrote:


Let him have his moment


I honestly don't mean to devalue his feelings at all; it's just something I've noticed more and more lately with quite a few different games I frequent: players quit after feeling they've wasted a lot of hours doing something they didn't find enjoyable.

Now, I also realize he didn't say 100% of the time spent wasn't fun, but for me, the moment I'm not having fun anymore, I move to something else for a bit, since doing otherwise feels counter-intuitive to me. I cannot imagine spending hundreds of hours doing something I don't find enjoyable, which is why I'm curious about what the motivation to continue playing was.

I realize my question could've been misconstrued as rhetorical; I genuinely want to hear what kept him going.

I don't think many people have fun every single moment they're playing a game (unless you're autistic and enjoy grinding), it's more about the "fun spikes" (that is, when you get a great item, when you defeat a boss, when you level up, etc) while the rest of the time is just trying to reach that next "fun spike".
If everyone stopped playing a game the instant they stopped having fun then nobody would get past loading screens.


I guess the use of the word "moment" is misleading; I didn't think anyone would interpret my scenario as literally as you did. ;)

Yes, I agree that there are dull moments. Heck, most of the builds I've done don't really come together until late-Cruel, and I doubt very many players who've built more than 2 characters enjoy the trek through normal, although I'm sure some do.

The situation to which I'm alluding, and one we don't know whether the OP fits into or not, involves those who persist through the "fun spikes" in hopes something will suddenly change that will cause the spike to be dramatically higher for the next event. For someone who has played since beta and should have a reasonable amount of wealth and experience (depending on their preferred league), finding a mirror-worthy item can be an example of this. But even that depends on who we're talking about, and the likelihood of such an event is so rare that one is probably better suited taking a break and returning when the experience is somewhat fresh again.
If I agree with a specific statement/argument within a post, it doesn't mean I agree with the entire post.
If I disagree with something, it doesn't follow that I agree with the opposite.
Please keep this in mind when responding to me. Thank you. =]
Last edited by Mathlete on Jul 2, 2014, 6:30:21 PM
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OnmyojiOmn wrote:


What it comes down to is that I wanted this game to be the next Diablo

Interesting, yea I agree too.

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OnmyojiOmn wrote:
I will never party with strangers with FFA loot. Not ever.

I'm part of a community that formed around D2, and we have a system that involves dropping the loot we find in town and divvying it up fairly after a game.

(sniped from post history)

I too was part of a small community, but we just shared and tried to "one-up" each other by being generous. Occasionally a HR nobody needed would drop or an early season Anni and we would sell it for Pul's and Um's or whatever we could get and share those or split the FG. I'm still in touch with some of these guys ten+ years later.

Why is it so hard for people to see that these communities would have never existed without forced FFA loot? (and arguably unwanted PVP situations) - a need for "gentleman" agreements like these would have never happened, those friends you made? They would have only been passing acquaintances and I dare say Diablo 2 itself would have not been the game we both wanted PoE to be the "next" of.


I disagree. FFA might make it easier to see who shares selflessly, but the people who show such generosity were not made by FFA.

It's a personality trait and part of who someone is and how they treat other people. With online resources, people with a generous nature can afford to be more generous than they may be able to be in real life. In online games, you can give someone something that may have taken quite a bit of your own time to acquire without worrying that your kids won't have anything to eat tomorrow morning.

Conversely, the anonymity of the internet, allows people to be far more selfish and mean spirited than they might act if they were face to face with another person in real life.

I do think it is much more fun to game with people who have a community mindset.


As to the original poster - I hope you find something enjoyable and satisfying and perhaps check back on PoE's progress from time to time. GGG might find a balance of maintaining a challenging game, yet making all aspects* achievable for the self found player that some players are hoping for.

Every game seems to have its pitfalls in terms of what the game company sees as fun versus the individual player. Sacred 3 for instance, might be fun, but why would the game company think I want computer AI party members? There's a vast difference between an ARPG and a semi-action/semi-turn base game like Secret of Mana or Chronotrigger.


*by this, I mean crafting, finding all or nearly all uniques and top tier items, etc.


PoE Origins - Piety's story http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2081910
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DalaiLama wrote:

I disagree. FFA might make it easier to see who shares selflessly, but the people who show such generosity were not made by FFA.

It's a personality trait and part of who someone is and how they treat other people. With online resources, people with a generous nature can afford to be more generous than they may be able to be in real life. In online games, you can give someone something that may have taken quite a bit of your own time to acquire without worrying that your kids won't have anything to eat tomorrow morning.

Conversely, the anonymity of the internet, allows people to be far more selfish and mean spirited than they might act if they were face to face with another person in real life.

I do think it is much more fun to game with people who have a community mindset.

Not that I disagree with any of your points, really. I still feel strongly that a valuable aspect of the ARPG feel is lost.

Group dynamics are FLAT since the removal of forced loot tension. PoE now plays much more like D3 or an MMO then D2, players don't need to compete at all - there is no need to trust anyone and for the most part friends, strangers, real life friends, or half afk'ers. it makes no difference, there no variation.

for example, when I play D2 I will:

* play public games with strangers: most of the time the default is "everyone grab what they can while fighting" in an 8 player game nobody knows who got what anyway, so there was no blame on ninja's.

* play public games with 1-2 other players: often you will find players are more willing to share loot in small groups, you could tell who was grabbing things and if one player was doing really well (like if they just snagged a good unique or valuable rune) I would often see even strangers let up and let others take everything for a while. - these situations are where you find the cool players who are willing to share - make friends here, avoid overly greedy players.

* play with friends: often we would "mostly fight and loot after danger" if there were things you needed, like a weapon type you use or if you were low on purple potions you were expected to loot fast, otherwise after a second or so delay we would all take valuables - often based on who got the kill etc. we almost never need to discuss anything other then asking to see a nice roll or whatever.

* solo: when I solo in d2 it was refreshing and enjoyable often just because you could escape the normal play and NOT have to pay attention to what drops, you could go at a different pace.

notice how all situations require different approaches to how you play?

Each player in every game could potentially stand out in respect to how they loot and fight, you had a motivation to avoid greedy players who didn't share and find those who did. I remember clearly some players who were very good, but they always hog the loot - it was a good idea to kinda be friends but keep them at a distance, every person reacted differently.

Even in PoE during the closed beta, I remember conversations with a friend where we went through our friends lists and compared each player we knew- "this guy is all pro, but he will grab everything so you gotta stay up front an loot first, otherwise you wont get shit", etc.

Now, with the domination of "perm allocation" every game is simply the same in this regard, every person, weather guildie, friend or stranger, full group, small group, public or private. FLAT.

No matter, almost EVERY SINGLE player I knew that enjoyed FAA loot is now gone - I highly doubt there are any left on the forums these days either. Nothing apparently is ever going to change so for the most part these posts are an exercise in futility.

I just keep seeing comments by people stating they are bored, or feel like they are wasting their time or any number of other minor flaws in the game that drive them to quit. Nobody ever says "gee, I wish I had to make some trusted friends" or "man, I really miss losing items to ninjas" - in the end I'll wager those were better problems to have then boredom that I'm starting to feel as well...


What's preventing you from sharing items that were allocated to you? And vice versa. Why do you need to force competitiveness in grabbing drops to find nice people that share? I agree with DalaiLama. FFA didn't compel nice people to be nice. And PA doesn't compel people to be selfish. People are who they are.
Guild Leader The Amazon Basin <BASIN>
Play Nice and Show Some Class www.theamazonbasin.com
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Not that I disagree with any of your points, really. I still feel strongly that a valuable aspect of the ARPG feel is lost.

Group dynamics are FLAT since the removal of forced loot tension.
Spoiler
PoE now plays much more like D3 or an MMO then D2, players don't need to compete at all - there is no need to trust anyone and for the most part friends, strangers, real life friends, or half afk'ers. it makes no difference, there no variation.

for example, when I play D2 I will:

* play public games with strangers: most of the time the default is "everyone grab what they can while fighting" in an 8 player game nobody knows who got what anyway, so there was no blame on ninja's.

* play public games with 1-2 other players: often you will find players are more willing to share loot in small groups, you could tell who was grabbing things and if one player was doing really well (like if they just snagged a good unique or valuable rune) I would often see even strangers let up and let others take everything for a while. - these situations are where you find the cool players who are willing to share - make friends here, avoid overly greedy players.

* play with friends: often we would "mostly fight and loot after danger" if there were things you needed, like a weapon type you use or if you were low on purple potions you were expected to loot fast, otherwise after a second or so delay we would all take valuables - often based on who got the kill etc. we almost never need to discuss anything other then asking to see a nice roll or whatever.

* solo: when I solo in d2 it was refreshing and enjoyable often just because you could escape the normal play and NOT have to pay attention to what drops, you could go at a different pace.

notice how all situations require different approaches to how you play?

Each player in every game could potentially stand out in respect to how they loot and fight, you had a motivation to avoid greedy players who didn't share and find those who did. I remember clearly some players who were very good, but they always hog the loot - it was a good idea to kinda be friends but keep them at a distance, every person reacted differently.

Even in PoE during the closed beta, I remember conversations with a friend where we went through our friends lists and compared each player we knew- "this guy is all pro, but he will grab everything so you gotta stay up front an loot first, otherwise you wont get shit", etc.


Now, with the domination of "perm allocation" every game is simply the same in this regard, every person, weather guildie, friend or stranger, full group, small group, public or private. FLAT.

Spoiler
No matter, almost EVERY SINGLE player I knew that enjoyed FAA loot is now gone - I highly doubt there are any left on the forums these days either. Nothing apparently is ever going to change so for the most part these posts are an exercise in futility.


I just keep seeing comments by people stating they are bored, or feel like they are wasting their time or any number of other minor flaws in the game that drive them to quit. Nobody ever says "gee, I wish I had to make some trusted friends" or "man, I really miss losing items to ninjas" - in the end I'll wager those were better problems to have then boredom that I'm starting to feel as well...



I agree with you on the feeling that something intangible was lost with the drop options.

IMO, finding other players that I enjoy gaming with is the only reason to play an online version of a game. I don't miss the days of starting PoE and struggling to find good players to have on my friends list. Whether they were competitive about grabbing loot was not the determining factor in adding someone as a friend for me, it was about honesty, fairness and cooperation in advancing through the game, or sticking it out and fighting through tough battles to succeed.

I don't think anyone misses losing items to ninjas, though they might miss the thrill of snagging an item before others did.


Sorry if this is a bit long and complex, but I thought I would suggest it as a potential improvement for the game.


I wonder if GGG could add one more option to the loot drop methods, Let's call it

Corrupted Allocation
Spoiler
This drop system Only encompasses non-map items that are currently on the permanently allocation lists (four linked+ sockets, six socket items, rares, uniques, etc. Maps retain their current drop system as do blues and most white items. The distribution chances of each allocation method are adjustable so that GGG can balance and tune them as necessary. The percentages and timing periods used below are just for example and may need fine tuning to make the game both competitive and enjoyable



1) Item drops are randomly scattered to prevent positional inherent advantages (such as playing melee or ranged).


2) Items dropped would fall into various states of allocation.

a: permanently allocated
b: temporarily allocated
c: imminently available
d: immediately available
e: contested

3)Item allocation would be determined both by random chance and by assignment based on character equippage.

4)Any item dropped has a 50% chance of being permanently allocated. If it is determined to be PA, then it is assigned based on:

For Weapons and Armor: a)33% random assignment to player. b)33% randomly assigned based on usage (see below) c) 34% chance based on kill (see below)

For Non-Weapons and Non Armor: a)65% random assignment to player. b)35% chance based on kill (see below)

6) Items not permanently allocated have a 33% chance to be temporarily assigned (randomly determined), a 33% chance to be imminently available and a 34% chance to be immediately available.

7)Temporarily assigned items will blink(or have some other highlighting feature) so as to be noticeable to the player they are assigned to. When the 5 second timer expires they become imminently available.

8)Items that are imminently available will have a red glow (or some other highlighting feature) so that all players can notice them.

9)Items that are temporarily assigned or imminently available can be Claimed by clicking the mouse cursor on them.

10)If an item is temporarily assigned to a certain player and that item is claimed by them, the 5 second timer refreshes once. Upon timer expiration, the item becomes imminently available. If a non-assigned player clicks on an item before the timer expires, they are considered to have registered a "claim" to the item.

11)If an item is imminently available, it has a 5 second timer before it becomes immediately available. Any player clicking their mouse cursor on an imminently available item has "Claimed" it - to prevent movement speed abuse, they do not need to physically move to the item.

If the timer expires and only one person has claimed it, it becomes permanently allocated to them. If more than one player clicks on the item before the timer expires - the item becomes "Contested"

12)Immediately available items may be picked up by any player by the usual method of moving within range and clicking on them.

13) Contested items. If more than one player claims an item than a challenge method must be used to determine who receives it. This challenge method may change or be subject to league specific rules.

14) If 2 players claim an item a Alch/Chaos/Scour (Rock/paper/Scissors) type scenario may be used where each player has 10 seconds to choose one of the three orbs. Chaos beats Alch, Scour beats Chaos and Alch beats Scour. The player winning this receives the item as permanently allocated.

If more than 2 players claim the item, or both players do not choose an orb within the alloted time, then the contested item is placed in a randomly colored large strongbox.
Each strongbox will be of a different color (red, blue, green, orange, white or yellow) - the number of chests depending on the number of players contesting the item. Each color chest may only be picked by a player once. If the item is in a blue chest and a player picks orange they will not receive the item. If they choose the right color chest the item will appear on their mouse cursor - where it can be placed in inventory or dropped back to the ground as a "Discard" with intentional player action confirmation similar to "destroy" item when in town, but no item destruction.

Alternate or Additional methods such as dueling may be added to contested item challenges.


15) A character who is dead cannot "claim" an item. A character who dies before a contested item challenge is resolved can still participate in the challenge, and if won place the item in their inventory or discard. This is to prevent some instances of griefing and to reflect that if the player had "won the first click in a FFA system they would already have the item before they died.

16) If a player leaves the instance, all contested items, and allocations previously determined for that character are lost and immediately available.

Usage: Weapons and Armor are compared to what players are using. For instance if 2 players are using a bow or quiver and a bow or quiver drops, then each player would have a 15% chance of being assigned that item for permanent allocation and the other players would have a 0% chance of being assigned that item for permanent allocation.
If an energy shield+Armor helm dropped than players using an ES+Armor helm would be considered. Items on the swap button are considered as well, though this may be altered later.

If no player is equipped with a similar item or the ones who are using a similar item fail the percentage check, then the item is dropped into imminently available allocation.

Kill: Each player doing damage to the monster has a 10% chance of being permanently alloacted the item. Players doing damage in excess of 15% of the monsters initial life+es receive an additional 5% chance of being permanently allocated the drop.

If no player receives the item under these percentages, the item becomes imminently available.

Time for me to fire up the client and play some PoE.
Good luck and have fun!
PoE Origins - Piety's story http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2081910
Last edited by DalaiLama on Jul 4, 2014, 2:44:20 AM
bump, dalaiLama could you put that into suggestions?

age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!

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