The wall of real problems that prevent PoE from being a god-tier game

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Crackmonster wrote:

Hey guys, i was travelling for some days, too much to address all. I just wanted to bring out this quote:

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SVD wrote:

p.s.: most people i know that left did so mainly because the gearing up stops before you feel your character is completed / got heavily screwed by rng when trying to 5link an item (300+ fuses).

This is very very true. The common excusist reaction is:

"but that is just your problem with your own expectation"

No, it's a matter of how well rewards are constructed, and if you are satisfied with how far you get before it becomes uninteresting for you to progress further compared to how far it is possible to ultimately get.

At the moment, the balance between those two is way off, and as such people leave in frustration because they do not feel satisfied with where they get, and they don't ask for BiS gear either.

EDIT: Also, anothe point i forgot to mention in OP and may add later, is that old content is left forgotten. Such as broken skills like arc etc.

The balance between the two is way off, but not at all in the way you imagine.

Your gaming should not be a job. It shouldn't be you suffering through things you do not want to do in order to obtain a series of pixels. Instead, it should be you doing things which are intrinsically enjoyable, and obtaining a series of pixels as a delicious and highly random bonus. (Actually, your real-life job shouldn't be suffering through things you do not want to do either; it should be doing things you enjoy and also getting paid for them.)

Thus, there is a problem with your expectation. You're not expecting to have fun. Fun is a very important reward, far more important than droprate.

The forums show you are not alone. There are many joylessly grinding through the game, motivated by gear and not by entertainment.

What causes this problem? I actually won't go "excusist" here; I'm not going to say it's necessarily all your fault you aren't having fun while playing. It can be (ex: dedicating yourself to a playstyle you don't actually enjoy), but it can also be GGG's fault for creating unfun experiences and expecting people to grind through it anyway because they're under the spell of the Skinner box. However, I think the emphasis for improving endgame should be far more on making things fun to play in-and-of themselves, and much less on drop rates, because if you don't enjoy what you're doing in-and-of itself, it doesn't matter how much you're paid per hour, it's still going to feel like a job to you.

Scrotie, don't forget PoE's (ab?)use of Sunk Cost Fallacy

After trying out RoS I noticed that difference.

I got badly spoiled by PoE in many ways. I expected to be invulnerable when I hit 103% resistance to something. I expected the game to tell me modified ressources or cd. I expected a transparent map that allows to move while open or an easy way to reset an instance.

After playing a game that long it is very easy to focus on points you don't enjoy. And the reward-system is something hard to understand for people, exspecially for ones not familiar with old reward-systems.

Most of the old games lacked any kind of reward except for the most important one... being able to play them. A lot of NES games exspecially hat so shitty endings because nobody expected that people want to beat games, they wanted to play them. A lot of older games were terrible hard. The old Castlevania-Titles are a really good example for that or Contra.

If would have gotten a game like PoE back than it would have been awesome. It would never come to my mind to complain about not having a 5l or 6l. Back then such a game would be awesome in itself. Most games in the 80s and early 90s rewarded you with a shitty ending and propably some typos.

Games are entertainment. If you play the game only to get a 5l you are doing it wrong. I play the game because it is fun and when I get a 5l... well then I get a 5l.

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Within the first week of playing I started reading threads about endgame content. Most of it was filled with complaints. It was disheartening, to say the least, because I'd already fallen in love with PoE, and I've quit a boatload of games fairly early for lack of or insufficient endgame. Of course, each PoE endgame complaint thread was also full of endgame defenders. But reading the posts in support of the endgame only seemed to serve as something that stopped my faith (that I'd be happy in endgame) from dropping even lower instead of actually making it rise back up.

Well go to any forum in the internet and find one where people do not complain. Although the internet is great for communication and intellectual exchange it also a place where people are more likely to complain, because they don't have to show themself, which unfortunatly often results in criticism which is not really that constructive.

Actually the D3-Forums are exactly the same. Everybody complains about the sucky endgame. The press and a lot of industry-experts claim D3 and PoE to be the within the best games made lately. Although D3 suffered from the high expectations it still is a good game. So people that aren't happy with one of those are either in the wrong genre (although D3 and PoE are already entirely different in the first place) or simply complain for the sake of complaining.

And there is a difference between complaining or constructive criticism. It is helpful to discuss things, but then again I don't see that much real discussions here.

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The hypothetical question is, what would this content be like for players if they (magically) already knew everything that comes with playing the game for a long time and becoming well-versed in its dynamics but instead of actually playing through the early game they were just dropped into endgame content? So they have all the skills, they have all the knowledge, but they just start in the late game. Would it be enjoyable then? If endgame requires that you're so previously invested in the game that you are going to persist no matter what, then it's bad endgame. If endgame is independently enjoyable then it becomes a new reason to play when you get there.

Well, PoE is an Action-RPG. Endgame just means providing varying challanges like the previous part did. While leveling you go through different acts experience the 3 difficulties etc. Endgame needs simply a way to simulate this to keep people entertained. PoE mainly uses the map-system for that, while D3 uses bounties and Rifts. Bounties are hard for PoE since D3 does not have a definite level-system anymore (you basically just unlock new skills and equipment), while in PoE it would be kinda silly to ask a lvl80 player to go kill Hillock in Merciless.

Maps basically provide different challanges and exspecially with a lot of builds it is always interesting to see how they hold up in different maps.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well go to any forum in the internet and find one where people do not complain. Although the internet is great for communication and intellectual exchange it also a place where people are more likely to complain, because they don't have to show themself, which unfortunatly often results in criticism which is not really that constructive.

Sure. I mean, when people are enjoying something they're more likely to just keep doing it than go write about it, but when people are getting pissed they'll set a few minutes aside to tell the world. But the part that I just can't let go of is how little the positive arguments changed my mind. I got my degree in philosophy; I'm literally trained to attempt to give equal weight to various sides of an argument and go from there. That obviously doesn't mean I'm right about a damn thing, of course.

Still, though, this is the sort of thing I keep reading. In essence:
Negative posts - "Endgame is poor because x, y, z."
Replies - "It's not completely terrible." "I've played worse." "Get better at playing."

That's just not very compelling. I'd love to see, "The game really opens up at 70," or, "PoE endgame is great because ______."

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Emphasy wrote:

Most of the old games lacked any kind of reward except for the most important one... being able to play them. A lot of NES games exspecially hat so shitty endings because nobody expected that people want to beat games, they wanted to play them. A lot of older games were terrible hard. The old Castlevania-Titles are a really good example for that or Contra.

If would have gotten a game like PoE back than it would have been awesome. It would never come to my mind to complain about not having a 5l or 6l. Back then such a game would be awesome in itself. Most games in the 80s and early 90s rewarded you with a shitty ending and propably some typos.

Yeah, I've been playing games since NES and Sega. I think Double Dragon was one of my first. But games have come a long way. If a contemporary game has crappy dialogue it's less valuable to me than the same game with better dialogue. Same with narrative, or difficulty scaling, or graphics, or whatever else.

PoE is a fairly open and progressive game with content that changes on a regular basis. GGG seems heavily invested in the community. The OP is, at least trying to, make critical suggestions for improvement. I'm trying to add my voice to the argument that some things should change to round out the endgame and draw players in deeper, even if my perspective is clumsy and immature given that I'm only looking at it from a place prior to reaching that content.

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After playing a game that long it is very easy to focus on points you don't enjoy. And the reward-system is something hard to understand for people, exspecially for ones not familiar with old reward-systems.

Most of the old games lacked any kind of reward except for the most important one... being able to play them. A lot of NES games exspecially hat so shitty endings because nobody expected that people want to beat games, they wanted to play them. A lot of older games were terrible hard. The old Castlevania-Titles are a really good example for that or Contra.

If would have gotten a game like PoE back than it would have been awesome. It would never come to my mind to complain about not having a 5l or 6l. Back then such a game would be awesome in itself. Most games in the 80s and early 90s rewarded you with a shitty ending and propably some typos.

Games are entertainment. If you play the game only to get a 5l you are doing it wrong. I play the game because it is fun and when I get a 5l... well then I get a 5l.

You do realize that you're making PoE sound like an archaic game, right?
Nothing you said actually makes PoE sound good, because old games are notorious for having non-skill-based difficulty and artificial game length extension.


You are also saying things in a way that seems to indicate that you're attempting to completely dismiss all gear progression issues because "if you're only playing to get good gear, you're doing it wrong".

Reread and reconsder your post.

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Xendran wrote:

"

After playing a game that long it is very easy to focus on points you don't enjoy. And the reward-system is something hard to understand for people, exspecially for ones not familiar with old reward-systems.

Most of the old games lacked any kind of reward except for the most important one... being able to play them. A lot of NES games exspecially hat so shitty endings because nobody expected that people want to beat games, they wanted to play them. A lot of older games were terrible hard. The old Castlevania-Titles are a really good example for that or Contra.

If would have gotten a game like PoE back than it would have been awesome. It would never come to my mind to complain about not having a 5l or 6l. Back then such a game would be awesome in itself. Most games in the 80s and early 90s rewarded you with a shitty ending and propably some typos.

Games are entertainment. If you play the game only to get a 5l you are doing it wrong. I play the game because it is fun and when I get a 5l... well then I get a 5l.

You do realize that you're making PoE sound like an archaic game, right?
Nothing you said actually makes PoE sound good, because old games are notorious for having non-skill-based difficulty and artificial game length extension.


You are also saying things in a way that seems to indicate that you're attempting to completely dismiss all gear progression issues because "if you're only playing to get good gear, you're doing it wrong".

Reread and reconsder your post.

POE is archaic game in many ways which isn't all that bad in some respects,yet in others it is.

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Xendran wrote:

Scrotie, don't forget PoE's (ab?)use of Sunk Cost Fallacy

PoE doesn't use it. Many of its players do.

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Xendran wrote:

You do realize that you're making PoE sound like an archaic game, right?
Nothing you said actually makes PoE sound good, because old games are notorious for having non-skill-based difficulty and artificial game length extension.

They're also notorious for having dedicated cult followings and plenty of who remember them fondly — good nostalgia.

Working "antiquated" design concepts into your art — that is, being retro — isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not just the medium of games, either. In film, you have Quentin Tarantino and his unabashed obsession with Sergio Leone; in music, you have the "garage" sound of White Stripes. Perhaps those examples are a bit dated, but there will be more over time. The point is that "old-fashioned" does not always equal "bad;" so long as there is some kind of modern spin, it's normally fair game.

I wouldn't go so far as to say non-skill-based difficulty and artificial game length extension are intrinsically good things, but they can be particular tastes which some players enjoy. Especially in the case of the latter, I believe this is something GGG is trying to refine and reintroduce to the modern market. Might not be your cup of tea. Fortunately, it doesn't have to be.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Working "antiquated" design concepts into your art — that is, being retro — isn't necessarily a bad thing.

That's true, we had FarCry - blood dragon recently, which was a disappointment to many because of old-school shooter vibe but it was also a breath of fresh air of sorts because it was pretty well done as a homage to another era. Another surprise was Might$Magic: Legacy, which revived the old style dungeon crawler down to tile-based movement, it's something modern players probably can't appreciate but every old-school player will crack a smile just seeing it in action again.

About PoE and enjoyment factor, I guess one of the main causes of complaints is this: 'if you don't play it the way devs want you to, you will suck'. I can live with that, personally, but I can also see the experience as less than enjoyable for many players. One does not just start PoE up to have some light, unadulterated fun without making some serious compromises.

You are certainly not wasting my time :)

First let me say as you already know, that while reading negative feedback can be demoralizing, it is another thing to actually play the game. There is a lot of fun to be had in the endgame and i played at least a thousand hours before i started getting frustrated. Just don't expect to get the items you need to craft ideal builds without flipping items or similar.

In essence you are quite right, no amount of sunk costs can make the endgame fun if it is not fun. The problem is as you arrive at, that the potential to make PoE a massively enjoyable game without endgame issues is there, the foundation is there, but it has been consciously restricted by development choices.

One thing rarely mentioned by those who say the problem is that people expect to gear rather than simply have fun, is that they are not mutually exclusive - in fact they are dependant in Diablo-style ARPG's. The complaints about endgame and droprates are real, and while there are always a tiny fraction of players who prefer to have them so low it is unrealistic to ever farm what they want, in reality most of the players saying the problem is with expectation would benefit equally from the real problem being pointed out. It is a defensive reaction revealing their position in the "game".

I will not differ from my points because they are sound, and no amount of accusation will make me forget what i have come to understand clearly - that drop rates are too low.

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Emphasy wrote:

Most of the old games lacked any kind of reward except for the most important one... being able to play them. A lot of NES games exspecially hat so shitty endings because nobody expected that people want to beat games, they wanted to play them. A lot of older games were terrible hard. The old Castlevania-Titles are a really good example for that or Contra.

Just as an introduction to explain my background and what i expect from games, let me say this is the type of player I am. I want the good gameplay, i don't care for the ending(unless it's a good story).

I played million of years of wow, i never cared to seriously raid even tho i was a monster. The game i played the most while younger and still play till this day was heroes of might and magic(at least until i started playing Diablo). I don't think i ever completed it for a point score more than a handful of times - i am interested in the quality of play and heroes was simply best while starting up and mid-game due to bad ai. I still love that game till this day and play the same way.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

The balance between the two is way off, but not at all in the way you imagine.

Your gaming should not be a job. It shouldn't be you suffering through things you do not want to do in order to obtain a series of pixels. Instead, it should be you doing things which are intrinsically enjoyable, and obtaining a series of pixels as a delicious and highly random bonus. (Actually, your real-life job shouldn't be suffering through things you do not want to do either; it should be doing things you enjoy and also getting paid for them.)

Thus, there is a problem with your expectation. You're not expecting to have fun. Fun is a very important reward, far more important than droprate.

The forums show you are not alone. There are many joylessly grinding through the game, motivated by gear and not by entertainment.

I am not saying there is no expectation, because there is and that is where PoE disappoints, I am saying there is healthy expectation and that is why the problem is with PoE failing to deliver rather than with people expecting it to deliver.

The problem in great part is actually how far you can climb not being satisfying in PoE, what is possible and what is realistic is not in good balance.

See i'm a fun seeker, i want the good satisfying gameplay and i am highly aware to that. I am not an epeen player who only want gear, if you knew me well you would know i am extremely little materialistic. That attack is wasted on me.

I am also a nearly pure ARPG player, i love ARPG's above all and i know what quality is. In ARPG's i want to develop my characters to a satisfying level and have fun while doing it, and that is it. Why do you think they are called grinding gear games? It's all about the grind, ARPG fanatics know the fun is tied to the gear-hunt, that is what defines an ARPG player the most really. I am pure that, and i only ever play RPG's with itemization if i can get away with it, and ARPG's are the purest when it comes to loothunting.

So, i would like for people to not blame players for wanting to gear up satisfyingly after having invested hundreds to thousands of hours, it damages the game because it distorts the feedback.

That being said, consider HunterWild's post and your own, maybe there is an actual lack of fun in the game caused by other factors that leads people to think that they just have to gear a bit more to get there. Who knows, all i can say is, this game is brilliant from 1 to 60, then due to slow progression in so many areas and being forced to grind the same easy for hundreds of hours without moving on, it starts getting less brilliant (actually you do move on because you want to, but eventually you find out that the best choice is to go back until you have that gear that takes hundreds to thousands of hours to farm, because else you will never get it, yes maps currency sink is a super bad idea that removes steady progression and leaves you hopeless).

I mean, don't you think people would love to build sick geared characters and run through high maps that didnt take a week for your map pool to reach? Dont you think they want to uberhunt or just show off their insane items?

Why do you think everyone are so greedy in PoE? It is because people need every little bit they can get so they can get what they want, it is not exactly a land of milk and honey, people are always starving.

Due to construction of endgame, a player cannot go "one man against the world", because content requires currency to enter. People say that if it was easier to reach high maps people would be 100 all over, well guess what, there are people running high maps all the time already, and then there are those who are not good enough at trading or don't have the perfect group to have a chance to showoff their skills in actually killing monsters with persistence.

So so much potential wasted, it could be so good but we are controlled like statistics.

I wish devs saw this post, i think i said some good honest things in this post.

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Crackmonster wrote:

I mean, don't you think people would love to build sick geared characters and run through high maps that didnt take a week for your map pool to reach? Dont you think they want to uberhunt or just show off their insane items?

Why do you think everyone are so greedy in PoE? It is because people need every little bit they can get so they can get what they want, it is not exactly a land of milk and honey, people are always starving.

Actually, I think they're greedy because they feel entitled to run high maps without taking a week (or more, I'd actually say it's more like two weeks if you're doing it right) for their map pool to get there, or they feel entitled to uberhunt as if it's not deliberately the hardest content GGG could throw at players.

That isn't the game. There's a lot of fun to be had with both low and mid maps, both of which are pretty darn accessible. I'm handling both at the moment with gear which cost me slightly less than 1 Ex total (that's all items combined).

The problem with the idea of making the absolute highest content available to everyone is that it denies a sense of continuous progression the more you play the game. It's important that, as long as you're playing, there's a feeling you're continually making progress. Once someone reaches the end, they can't progress any further. That's why the end is very delayed. I think everyone's just too impatient to see that giving you what you want earlier isn't going to make things more fun, it's just going to end the fun sooner.