A reminder to GGG to never fall for the 'SFL' trap

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LSN wrote:

But rerolling and build diversity is something you have already now. I don't see the point of a SFL then at all!?

There is build diversity, but only if you have the gear to make it. For example, it's stupid to build a dual claw ghost reaver, unless you already have the top end gear to make it work in your stash. You certainly will not find the gear to sustain it through play. And that's okay for a few builds, but it seems to be the rule, not the exception.

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b15h09 wrote:

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LSN wrote:

But rerolling and build diversity is something you have already now. I don't see the point of a SFL then at all!?

There is build diversity, but only if you have the gear to make it. For example, it's stupid to build a dual claw ghost reaver, unless you already have the top end gear to make it work in your stash. You certainly will not find the gear to sustain it through play. And that's okay for a few builds, but it seems to be the rule, not the exception.

Either the drop system in a SFL will stay scarce (or only little increase) which means you wont likely find them there either or drops get increased alot (to make a significant difference) which will result in everybody finds everything after a certain point of time and can try every build with only GG items after 3-4 months of playing.


What is wrong about selling the stuff that you find and buy these claws that you want? This enables alot more build diversity instead of limiting it.

To repeat myself. There wont be any system that cares individually on you so that you get your frequent upgrades over a period of months in equal distances.

People fanatically against sfl remind me a lot of the people fanatically against permanent allocation. They tried to dissmiss it as something a minority desire, unimportant and would hurt the game. What they were really afraid of was not being able to profit at the expense of other players. Same with some anti sfl people.

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LSN wrote:

But rerolling and build diversity is something you have already now. I don't see the point of a SFL then at all!?

yet again, here is the problem. He wasn't making an argument that a SFL is needed for Rerolling and build diversity. His argument was that people won't get bored of a SFL for the reasons you are mentioning because the game is just that good already. SFL supporters generally don't hate the game. We are here because we like it already but want to see more out of it and see it enjoyed in a different way than what we have now.

This will all go much easier if you stop assuming things and responding to arguments that weren't even made.

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Avu wrote:

People fanatically against sfl remind me a lot of the people fanatically against permanent allocation. They tried to dissmiss it as something a minority desire, unimportant and would hurt the game. What they were really afraid of was not being able to profit at the expense of other players. Same with some anti sfl people.

I am not as much against SFL as you might think. I try to understand why ppl at all would want something like this. The only real arguments and points ppl make and made have their origin in being deceived that the games general mechanics which decide about you getting bored or not would change then.

They would not! Therefore no reason to have something like a SFL.

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LSN wrote:

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b15h09 wrote:

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LSN wrote:

But rerolling and build diversity is something you have already now. I don't see the point of a SFL then at all!?

There is build diversity, but only if you have the gear to make it. For example, it's stupid to build a dual claw ghost reaver, unless you already have the top end gear to make it work in your stash. You certainly will not find the gear to sustain it through play. And that's okay for a few builds, but it seems to be the rule, not the exception.

Either the drop system in a SFL will stay scarce (or only little increase) which means you wont likely find them there either or drops get increased alot (to make a significant difference) which will result in everybody finds everything after a certain point of time and can try every build with only GG items after 3-4 months of playing.

It's really not an either/or type of thing. It's a matter of balance. Decreasing variance so that most of the gear you find is level appropriate doesn't mean it will have ideal mods for the build you're running. There will still be a loot hunt. It just won't be tuned with the expectation of trading.

But in general you want increased droprates thats right?

The thing is that the more they are getting increased the more it is a GG items for everyone fest and the less they get increased the less of a point for a SFL there is, do I get this right?

After all either the droprates barely make a difference (while slightly increased) and you dont find what you want or stuff drops here and there and you get more than you could ever use or try. Anyway ppl are going to complain again.


Look D3. They made their game for 3-4 weeks lifetime of playing max with selffound and no trading at all with legendary timer and the ability for everyone to get all the content in the game after a couple of weeks of playing. If there was a better balance possible I guess they had gone for it. Instead they doubled droprates several times because ppl kept complaining about not finding everything.


There is no system that will provide you with constant upgrades over a long period of time. Either the upgrades come step by step as PoE is (and D3 was in the beginning) or they drop all at once (in a short period of time) and from then on you cant get anymore upgrades.

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LSN wrote:

But in general you want increased droprates thats right?

The thing is that the more they are getting increased the more it is a GG items for everyone fest and the less they get increased the less of a point for a SFL there is, do I get this right?

People want to progress at a reasonable pace in this game by KILLING STUFF. They don't want to be forced to trade to progress past a certain point. Is this concept so hard to understand?

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LSN wrote:

But in general you want increased droprates thats right?

The thing is that the more they are getting increased the more it is a GG items for everyone fest and the less they get increased the less of a point for a SFL there is, do I get this right?

No, I don't want to increase drop rates. I want drops to be level appropriate. I'd be happy with getting 10% the loot that currently drops, if half what did drop had use to some type of build that is around the level of the zone it dropped it.

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b15h09 wrote:

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LSN wrote:

But in general you want increased droprates thats right?

The thing is that the more they are getting increased the more it is a GG items for everyone fest and the less they get increased the less of a point for a SFL there is, do I get this right?

No, I don't want to increase drop rates. I want drops to be level appropriate. I'd be happy with getting 10% the loot that currently drops, if half what did drop had use to some type of build that is around the level of the zone it dropped it.

How would crafting then ever be viable? The better the drops the less likely a craft will get you an improvement. I understand that crafting in SFL is inevitable as there is no other use for orbs. After 10-15 Exalts at the latest that you will have found after 1-2 month of SFL (with increased droprates) that dont give you anything the same old argument will be valid again, stupid grind without getting anything.

I am convinced that it is mathematically impossible to have an ARPG as you describe and desire it.