"hardcore" overflow

"

johnKeys wrote:

oh they certainly have the ability.
look at the Vaal Oversoul, as a proof of concept which they didn't really build upon.
they also have the technology readily available, and are not limited by D2-era "AI" Brother Laz had to deal with, while designing the Median mods.

they built upon it, with dominus and some map boss fights like torture chamber boss

what was the result of that ? people fear desync and rather do easier bosses. most hardcore players never bother to care to kill dominus in merciless until theyre severely overgeared.

you're the one who fails to understand the simple concept of clever movement skills AI ALWAYS
being feared and avoided because of DESYNC in poe. something that cannot be fixed in this iteration of game no matter how hard you complain about it.

"

take a quick look at Torchlight 2. one example out of many.
what you'll see is AI, positioning, monster skills and support skills that synergize with the rest of the group. things that don't damage you directly, but will be your end when with other things who do.

take a look at torchlight 2, does it have fucking desync ?
nope, never found it because its an offline game. they can afford any kind of mechanics that relies on super precise timing and movement and get away with it because there is no latency issues besides I/O interrupts latency and your reaction time to hit the said I/O (keyboard, mouse)


yet you fail to understand this, still. you also fail to understand that fixing desync is not a trivial thing. you never want to view the game from dev point of view, either because of lack of technical knowledge or ignorance, and only have 'wanna's'

"

grepman wrote:

"

mazul wrote:

Which is exactly the point: spending more time is not only advantageous, during that period of time there is a loss in capability as well. Which is why spending time will not always make you better.

We see that among professional LoL and chess players as well.

players who are 40 years old arent becoming worse because they 'lose in capability' because they spent too much time playing soccer. .

I never said that they lost capability by spending too much time playing soccer. What I said was that spending time will not always yield a positive net result.

"

johnKeys wrote:

what is YOUR definition of a "hardcore game"?

a game that:

1) is complex to understand and master in its mechanics but rewards u with many playstyle-options
(PoE is good here, though there are some problems)

2) forces u to develope strategies to kill enemies
(PoE does this barely, most enemies can be facetanked / killed with only 1 skill used)

3) values playerskills over gear
(here PoE fails completly)

"

grepman wrote:

DESYNC!

yes, desync.
though if you ever read any of my threads or threads by other people with a bit of knowledge in this area, you will know it can be diminished to a point of little impact on the players. exist, without such devastating effect on the end-user a.k.a you.
GGG know all of this, but they will not do it for 2 reasons:

• it requires an almost complete overhaul of the game's core, and adapting the whole thing to a new algorithm and system.
  back-breaking labor in terms of code.
• their priorities are pretty much "shinies first, everything else later", right now. because shinies (MTX and content) equal money now.

I didn't compare PoE to TL2 because the two games are very different. one of the key differences being offline vs. online, as you pointed out.
but I did bring TL2 as an example of how current-day AI technology, changes what many of you think enemies in an aRPG should look like.
how it opens up possibilities above and beyond what you may remember, if you played anything with characters, monsters and loot, as long as I have.

is TL2 the only current day aRPG with noticeable AI? no.
do all online-based aRPGs today feature dumb enemies that resemble those of D1 or D2? heck no.

but yeah, desync right?
that's why GGG occasionally design one enemy that isn't a complete dumb-as-fuck gear check, then go rest for a year.

"

johnKeys wrote:

GGG know all of this, but they will not do it for 2 reasons:

• it requires an almost complete overhaul of the game's core, and adapting the whole thing to a new algorithm and system.
  back-breaking labor in terms of code.
• their priorities are pretty much "shinies first, everything else later", right now. because shinies (MTX and content) equal money now.

number 2 isnt just money. its much more feasible.

I work as a software dev.

when we have a list of features from our corporate customers, guess which ones we'll do first ? the easiest ones, so we can 1) cross them off the list 2)show that we did indeed work and not watch youtube and play games all day 3)least amount of future hotfixes required and code freeze can go through with minimal testing.

guess which one we'll do the latest ? the one that deals with optimizing algorithm thats already been optimized to some degree, and dealing with which will involve ton of our time with no real outcome to show the results.

"

but I did bring TL2 as an example of how current-day AI technology, changes what many of you think enemies in an aRPG should look like.
how it opens up possibilities above and beyond what you may remember, if you played anything with characters, monsters and loot, as long as I have.

is TL2 the only current day aRPG with noticeable AI? no.
do all online-based aRPGs today feature dumb enemies that resemble those of D1 or D2? heck no.

but yeah, desync right?
that's why GGG occasionally design one enemy that isn't a complete dumb-as-fuck gear check, then go rest for a year.

GGG designs a few of these bosses, and then they are feared, especially by hardcore players

the game in its current state does not reward harder (ie, mechanically harder) boss kills with better loot, so theres no point from peoples point of view to do them (and thats arguably a much bigger problem)

the point is this design is useless if any boss that is based on mechanics is being skipped by majority of players whod rather deal with easy bosses.

whats funny is that atziri and uber atziri are mechanical fights in a way too.

Hardcore is an ambiguous word when used to describe a specific thing, let alone the fact the fact that the word when used alone is even more ambiguous.
Hardcore often means not for casuals; in fact that's probably the best possible definition if the definition is to be a short and simple. What's worse for casuals than having to farm many hours before being able to continue?
What else is not for casuals? Permanent death. That's optional in this game, but the fact it's an option still makes it hardcore I guess.

Skill? Eh, it's hard to say; Skill based games are somewhat hardcore, but not really. Skill-based games like Starcraft —or a lesser degree LoL/DotA— or even Chess are all quite causal-friendly and popular with casuals.

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

DESYNC!

though if you ever read any of my threads or threads by other people with a bit of knowledge in this area, you will know it can be diminished to a point of little impact on the players. exist, without such devastating effect on the end-user a.k.a you.
GGG know all of this, but they will not do it for 2 reasons:

• it requires an almost complete overhaul of the game's core, and adapting the whole thing to a new algorithm and system.
  back-breaking labor in terms of code.
• their priorities are pretty much "shinies first, everything else later", right now. because shinies (MTX and content) equal money now.

GGG has explained that a predominant factor that contributes to desyncing is the strict server tolerances for client behavior. With current internet technology it's difficult to not have desync while still prevent any significant form of exploitation of the server's limited view of what's going on (i.e. hacking). Not to say it can't be improved, but it can't be perfect, and the reasons why it exists isn't accurately mentioned.

"

grepman wrote:

whats funny is that atziri and uber atziri are mechanical fights in a way too.

Atziri isn't a mechanical fight, nor does she sport any noticeable AI.
what she is, is a bullet-hell-like boss: always the same patterns, always one-shot, always stand in the 10% of the screen that's not filled with Storm Calls or Flameblasts - or you die.
go to the Alpha Server, make your char invincible, then just stand motionless in front of her.
she'll likely hit you with the same things every time, and do her pattern regardless of the fact you are doing nothing.

Vaal Oversoul is AI. best AI in Path Of Exile in my opinion.
Dominus' first form - although I truly despise the bastard - is AI to some extent.
some enemies are AI.
and that's about it for this game.

and since we are both in the same line of work, grepman, you know that a system has connections and interactions between it's different modules - so you can't just change something without fixing something else as a direct result.
if desync is what's preventing skill-based design - and it's not, I think it's just a stupid excuse - and bad loot drops and risk/reward ratios make people skip the mechanically hard monsters - then diminish desync and make the loot skill-based too, for fuck's sake.
it's an obvious answer.
and then you can make better enemies. start living up to this game's enormous potential.

@Xapti, blaming everything on the servers and quality of connections is only making GGG look like lazy amateurs in my opinion, when they are not.
improve the damn algorithm, and suddenly even bad connections won't be as much of a problem as they are now.
a bit of "can do attitude" can work wonders, even if doing this won't give GGG immediate income on the spot. fear of the lack of immediate income is what stops them dead in their tracks, it seems.
either that, no desire to make the game truly better, or both.

as grepman noted, they want to do the multiple "easy" stuff to say "look! we did all of this instead of playing Minesweeper all day!", instead of "digging-in" to solve the big fucking mother of all bugs.
multiple surface changes, instead of one big nasty engine overhaul.
surface changes look good, are relatively easy to do, and there are a lot of them to show in change logs.
nobody looks at the engine, aside from an occasional deeply-frustrated John Keys, who skips to the "bug fixes" section in every single patch note for the past year, and face-palms every single time.

"

Xapti wrote:

Hardcore often means not for casuals

impaled by the double-edged sword. define "casuals".
if "casual" means not willing to grind the same damn content 24/7 like a damn bot, and trade in a game that shouldn't be about trade, then I pride myself in being a casual for over 30 years.
if "hardcore" means what I think it does, then I pride myself in being hardcore for over 30 years.
honing of skills. learning from mistakes. improvement of in-game knowledge. development of an efficient and fun playing style.
Path Of Exile encourages neither, unless you count being a better "economy flipper", as "honing of skills".

"

johnKeys wrote:

"

grepman wrote:

whats funny is that atziri and uber atziri are mechanical fights in a way too.

Atziri isn't a mechanical fight, nor does she sport any noticeable AI.
what she is, is a bullet-hell-like boss: always the same patterns, always one-shot, always stand in the 10% of the screen that's not filled with Storm Calls or Flameblasts - or you die.
go to the Alpha Server, make your char invincible, then just stand motionless in front of her.
she'll likely hit you with the same things every time, and do her pattern regardless of the fact you are doing nothing.

it still mechanics you need to learn, not a simple bag of gear check like a random map boss, lets say of strand map.

"

and since we are both in the same line of work, grepman, you know that a system has connections and interactions between it's different modules - so you can't just change something without fixing something else as a direct result.

breaking something else you mean ? :)

"

if desync is what's preventing skill-based design - and it's not, I think it's just a stupid excuse - and bad loot drops and risk/reward ratios make people skip the mechanically hard monsters - then diminish desync and make the loot skill-based too, for fuck's sake.
it's an obvious answer.

problem with that its all or nothing exercise. they either have to make all bosses hard or all bosses easy. people who love to bash the game always talk about 'path of least resistance'. well, this is path of least resistance too- people will always do whats easier and more effecient, always.

"

@Xapti, blaming everything on the servers and quality of connections is only making GGG look like lazy amateurs in my opinion, when they are not.
improve the damn algorithm, and suddenly even bad connections won't be as much of a problem as they are now.

I was really surprised to learn you are in the same line of work when you say things like 'improve the damn algorithm' matter-of-factly, when the game has so many limitations a thing like snapshot is still in the damn game.

"

nobody looks at the engine, aside from an occasional deeply-frustrated John Keys, who skips to the "bug fixes" section in every single patch note for the past year, and face-palms every single time.

there was a desync attempt fix at some point. I dont understand how you can be in software dev and not understand a game that is released is not getting a major fucking engine overhaul on what can possibly be as low-level as tcp/ip stack/socket level design.

we have a ton of legacy products where I work, and many of them are written by people who are no longer with the company. some people who are responsible for some products arent even 100% familiar with full engine intricacies. they are not changing fundamental basics of the product unless the product is re-written from scratch, period. now in GGG case its different, but really, the reality is that no one will rewrite the sync code from scratch.

"

and trade in a game that shouldn't be about trade

but see johnkeys, thats just your opinion. GGG thinks game is about trade and partying. clearly we have difference of opinions, Im not sure why you think yours is 'right'

"

johnKeys wrote:

Atziri isn't a mechanical fight, nor does she sport any noticeable AI.
what she is, is a bullet-hell-like boss: always the same patterns, always one-shot, always stand in the 10% of the screen that's not filled with Storm Calls or Flameblasts - or you die.
go to the Alpha Server, make your char invincible, then just stand motionless in front of her.
she'll likely hit you with the same things every time, and do her pattern regardless of the fact you are doing nothing.

Vaal Oversoul is AI. best AI in Path Of Exile in my opinion.
Dominus' first form - although I truly despise the bastard - is AI to some extent.
some enemies are AI.
and that's about it for this game.

Atziri IS a mechanical fight, and she doesnt oneshot you if you're prepared and have 6k life. Not even a flameblast can oneshot you with purity of fire on! stop this "oneshot" bullshit please. Dodging her constant stream of flameblasts and SC is a required mechanic that this fight has and it proves constantly your reflexes.

Yes patterns are always the same with "scrambled" order. But aren't Vaal ones the same patterns too with scrambled order too? what's the difference here?

I said this a million time: Vaal is a plain stupid boss. He has 0 AI too (can't even aim with lasers properly like any mob/boss. In TL2 enemy "predicts" where you're going to be and shoots there) a single summon skeleton totem will render him totally harmless and his mechanics are slow and easily predictable/dodged. I prefer one million times dominus fight, way way more challenging and skill/reflex requiring than Vaal.

Also, the ice grond from Vaal: really? what a stupid attack, give that shit a DOT at least cmon...

"

johnKeys wrote:

impaled by the double-edged sword. define "casuals".
if "casual" means not willing to grind the same damn content 24/7 like a damn bot, and trade in a game that shouldn't be about trade, then I pride myself in being a casual for over 30 years.
if "hardcore" means what I think it does, then I pride myself in being hardcore for over 30 years.
honing of skills. learning from mistakes. improvement of in-game knowledge. development of an efficient and fun playing style.
Path Of Exile encourages neither, unless you count being a better "economy flipper", as "honing of skills".

Yeah I it crossed my mind briefly but forgot to elaborate on that.

Casuals, while ambiguous as well, would —under my opinion— generally mean people who don't focus on finishing games, nor being one of the best at the game, nor spending a lot of time on a game.

Everyone would like to be good at a game — that doesn't make someone hardcore; it's how much effort one puts into getting there.

So if it wasn't clear, I'd say it's more about how much time a person spends or can spend in a game to do well, not just that it's skill-based.