A Message to Everyone

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Moosifer wrote:

Your ups are overwhelming and your downs are spirit crushing. Once you adjust, it's a much more enjoyable gameplay experience because you never know what you're actually going to get. While in other games, you know if you do quest X, you're getting that item you've always wanted. POE, the hardest boss you've ever face might give you all blues. While the easiest one ever might drop a kaoms (well...maybe not a kaoms, but something very valuable).

Agreed mapping feels more like blackjack than poker.

However, there is a subtle difference between mapping and gambling, if you keep winning on gamble you walk away with a small fortune. And nice, high level maps you ran might give you nothing, and they most often won't... really good items are far in between and at some point experience reward stretches it thin too.

In real life, nobody would gamble to get a chance to win.

Actually, because maps can sell fairly easily for currency, you can "cash out" as it were. Before maze was removed to afford running 73-76 maps I was selling my 77s for 4 ex to pay for it. If someone is ok with running 73-76s and selling their 77/78s they can make a good profit. If I wasn't trying to collect data I might stick to that method as I don't really have the patience to go much higher than 90.

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raics wrote:

Agreed mapping feels more like blackjack than poker.

I never complained too much on map drop, but yesterday I run 3x71 to get one 69 and 3x68 to get one 67. And I have such bad luck streak since Saturday... I start loosing energy to play, as map drop is only drop I care about. And, no I'm not going to buy maps, I'd rather take break from PoE when I run dry on them...

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Moosifer wrote:

My comparisons aren't really to playing poker and running maps. It's how you manage your bankroll. You're ignoring the meat of my post for minor details. If you maintain your map pool correctly you can sustain maps fairly easily.

I'm sorry you feel I'm ignoring the meat of your post.

But the fact of the matter remains that if the map pool is actually sustainable over a long period assuming that you clear every map you open successfully, then it's not really gambling, now is it?

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edit: went too quick forgot to address your 2nd paragraph. That's just your opinion. My opinion is I like this system because it adds a layer of risk and unknown. Do you build up a large pool and play it safe or do you risk it all? This is why people enjoy gambling, intermediate reinforcement. Sometimes you're rewarded, sometimes you aren't, but you're always chasing that big win.

I don't think that end-game content should be gated behind a gambling mechanism. From a game design standpoint it's downright stupid.

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What is better than playing that low level map then getting a sudden string of +2s from every map afterwards?

If mapping was an optional side-activity which had a specialised set of rules for the way loot dropped and that was all, then I might agree with you. But levelling progression effectively stalls without running maps and this content should not be subject to mechanics that a player has no direct control over.

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The reason people buck against this system is they are trained by other games. They all allow you to reach the end one way or another.

It's just as easy to say you were trained into a gambling addiction by other games of chance, and that without the element of risk you're not satisfied.

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It's all catered to the lowest common denominator, make sure the playing experience is easy for everyone.

Nonsense. Some games aim at mass appeal but there are just as many games that do not. Assuming that an objection to the unreliable mechanics to access the game means that you want to have an "easy experience" is incredibly patronising and frankly I find it offensive.

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POE is more like being a professional gambler. Your ups are overwhelming and your downs are spirit crushing. Once you adjust, it's a much more enjoyable gameplay experience because you never know what you're actually going to get. While in other games, you know if you do quest X, you're getting that item you've always wanted. POE, the hardest boss you've ever face might give you all blues. While the easiest one ever might drop a kaoms (well...maybe not a kaoms, but something very valuable).

I have no interest in gambling. The idea of betting money for the sake of making more money is a meaningless experience as far as I'm concerned. I understand that in an ARPG that RNG has to exist in some forms and generally I can live with that.

What I do not accept is the idea that I need to win at the roullette wheel in order to access game content in the first place. If I sit down to play a game, that means I actually want to play the game. I don't have any interest in investing my time which is generally precious to me in the hopes that some stupid RNG system decides to work in my favour and actually allows me to get to the part of the game I actually wanted to play in the first place.

And I think it's an absolutely terrible idea that the end-game content is gated like this and that the crafting system in general is similarly restricted. Creating a situation in a game where a person can invest their time into the game, acquire a certain amount of wealth, invest that wealth only to lose it *all* leads to buyer's remorse. Picture a guy that had 5 maps or whatever when he logged in and now has no maps due to shitty RNG and because he died on the last map all the experience he got was lost too. In fact the entire gaming session was just a big waste of his time as far as he's concerned - and that memory is going to stick in his head every single time he logs into PoE to play. From a game design perspective how short-sighted do you have to be to think this kind of feedback loop is "OK".

And just for the record I'm an avid DOTA player. I enjoy having my skill tested to the absolute limit and sometimes having to deal with the fact that I just got outplayed or that the game was lost because of a mistake I made. I think DOTA is way more hardcore than PoE because the game honestly punishes stupid in a way PoE never could. But the great thing about DOTA is that you're having fun playing the game from the time the timer starts to the time you take the enemy base (or until it becomes obvious the enemy's going to take your base). PoE lacks this because of all the way it forces people to do stuff they don't enjoy, like hoping to get lucky with map RNG so they can continue playing the game without feeling like they're wasting their time, or farming piety with an IIQ/IIR character because its so blatantly superior to other methods of acquiring wealth. And this really is something that GGG needs to address or the only people that play will be the kind of person that can develop an honest-to-god gambling addiction. And note the lack of buyer's remorse when it comes to a bad game of Dota. Just because your 40 minutes of game play went really really badly doesn't mean that the previous 2 games you won just turned into losses too.

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tmaciak wrote:

I never complained too much on map drop, but yesterday I run 3x71 to get one 69 and 3x68 to get one 67. And I have such bad luck streak since Saturday... I start loosing energy to play, as map drop is only drop I care about. And, no I'm not going to buy maps, I'd rather take break from PoE when I run dry on them...

I have the same feelings about maps. I do them fully knowing that 1.) wont get any of the top uniques, because I dont run 500 MF party multibox whateva... 2.) I'm actually loosing currency on maps, since I don't involve myself in trading much. (but I could earn from them, yes, if I could be arsed to play shopkeep)

I enjoy looting maps from maps, that's all. And when I hit a bad streak I get really frustrated. Yesterday I did 3 Necropolis in a row and got out a Graveyard. At this point I got pissed and fvk you game, I'm gonna run all the 77s I have left and ragequit... Then luck resumed and got several 78s and 76s from those 77s.

It's a statistical battle. You gotta do a whole lot of maps to overcome the spikes of bad luck. This "jittery" RNG experience is is all over the place in this game and one of the most frustrating things, for people like me that hate uncertainty and gambling.

Xarog - It's opinion vs opinion. Should we continue the circle jerk to see who's opinion is better? Maps are optional, in fact end game in general for ARPGs is completely optional. Rather than running the same boss a billion times like D2, you have a dynamic end game that functions the same way the loot system does. It fits theme, adds excitement, disappointment and another level to competitive play that's beyond time invested.

Honestly think maps are a genius concept but there are improvements to be made. I don't think one is removing RNG from the picture. Feel free to disagree but I don't think the fundamentals of maps are changing, period.

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Moosifer wrote:

Xarog - It's opinion vs opinion. Should we continue the circle jerk to see who's opinion is better?

Why not? One of them will result in a higher median satisfaction level among the game's population.

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Maps are optional, in fact end game in general for ARPGs is completely optional.

You would be correct if mapping was not so blatantly superior in terms of experience gained per hour. As it stands maps are not "optional". Beyond a certain point they become mandatory for character progression.

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Rather than running the same boss a billion times like D2, you have a dynamic end game that functions the same way the loot system does. It fits theme, adds excitement, disappointment and another level to competitive play that's beyond time invested.

Yeah, maps are great. I think they could be a positive aspect of the game and there's a lot of interesting mechanics at play when it comes to mapping.

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Honestly think maps are a genius concept but there are improvements to be made. I don't think one is removing RNG from the picture. Feel free to disagree but I don't think the fundamentals of maps are changing, period.

Then it's simply a question of wether or not GGG can sustain its game model with a player-base made up entirely of gambling addicts. Personally I'd say chances are better of them caving.... eventually. The chisel recipe proves that the issue has been enough of a sticking point for them to do something about it, and for the reasons I've outlined above, I think they'll end up being forced to try something more drastic.

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Moosifer wrote:

Xarog - It's opinion vs opinion.

Honestly think maps are a genius concept but there are improvements to be made. I don't think one is removing RNG from the picture. Feel free to disagree but I don't think the fundamentals of maps are changing, period.

Well, yes, it's ultimately just an opinion, but if the opinion 'maps are crap' becomes largely prevalent I'm afraid devs just might be in a bit of a spot. Maps aren't purely optional, they are an important part of the game experience and the favorite, much quoted, saying of experienced exiles is 'life begins at 66'. Really, you wouldn't be hard-pressed to piss longer than it takes to blaze through regular content.

Not that I'm trying to teach you how to do your job, but, you know, alpha members in most games aren't really a large enough sample to be representative, to provide quality feedback it's not enough to ask yourself 'do I like it?' but also 'do I think others would like it?' Opinion based on own perspective only doesn't cut it.

Are actual argument is mostly worthless because we aren't working towards a goal. I'm standing with the status quo, you're against. I'm sure both of us have people on our sides, but the people with the loudest voice are those against it.

Even in the game's current state maps are optional. I just had a long argument with someone else in this thread about it. Game in it's current state isn't meant for 85+ without a serious investment. Any alternative to maps would have the same results just be less varied, i.e. more boring.

BUT, I do think if they improved map affixes so there were more difficult mods, that difficult combinations gave higher IIQ when together, and basically what they envisioned when putting this together. The hardest maps give the biggest reward. At this time there's not a large IIQ difference between an easy map or hard one, nor are there much noticeable difference between drops. I think if this is improved both sides will enjoy mapping more. Removing massive/maze was a big step forward, I just hope they don't wait almost another 2 years to make further improvements.

edit: @raics - all of my opinions are through the filter of what I enjoy, as I'm basically a casual nolifer. I'm not playing for high level, to be first, to win anything, to have massive wealth, I just want to play fun builds. But I also play A LOT so I understand what people doing those things go for. So my feedback is just a general, this is what I enjoy/want to have. Also, I put it through the context of GGG's vision as I know something directly counter to their plans just isn't going to happen. I think that's what most people forget when making suggestions.

Like my suggestion above. I'm pretty sure GGG wants RNG built into mapping. Players hate it but also want more difficult content. I think if difficult content yielded the highest reward both sides would be happy. Players can progress doing difficult content, while GGG keeps the RNG elements they enjoy. I just don't know what's taking so long for this to happen.

Ok, strictly personal perpective it is, fair enough.

By the way, there was a nice idea some time ago about another source of mapping, balanced to exist next to the current one.

In short, it said maps could also be randomly found as portal stones in areas, finding such a stone would lead you to a map area a level higher than the one you found it on, and that one would also have the chance to spawn a portal stone taking you to an area another level higher, so you could dynamically chain it as long as your luck holds. They could also start pretty early to alleviate levelling boredom, probably as soon as cruel.

Yes, normal maps could be much more satisfying with some tweaking but it would be nice to have another source of endgame goodness just in case you take some risks and get pooped by rng. A tweak I'd really like to see on maps and rare monsters is mod synergy, where mods that are particularly nasty together net you a hidden bonus IIQ improving risk vs reward ratio.