I was just saying yesterday that Viper Striker being too useful for most Nemesis characters, and it is now getting "fixed." ~_~
though now it should theoretically be greenlit for melee splash. Since I recall one of the devs mentioning the the DoT scaling problem to be the primary reason it didn't have support for it.
If I have two fish, and you have three fish, how many fish do we have?
None. These are MY fish.
Thanks for the feedback about the lack of Domination vs Nemesis PvP segregation. There are problems with too much segregation (especially in leagues like Hardcore that don't have as many players) but we'll take it on board. I'd love to have it entirely league-specific but only if there are enough players to make it awesome.
While I think the video for the 1.0.1 patch was very enjoyable, if it takes time away from development or otherwise improving them game then I am disinclined to approve of them.
As you said, they take considerable time.
It's just my weekend really :P
This brings to my attention the fact that this decision seems solely based on the fact that there are 2% total population on the hardcore realm. Keep in mind that the decision for pitting hardcore against softcore still doesn't help the fact that it will not be awesome for now more like 25% of the population that plays on all the hardcore ruleset leagues. Chris, come on man.
I can't hope enough that the PvP will be league specific.
In 1.0.2, Standard and Hardcore can fight each other. Domination and Nemesis can fight each other. The old leagues cannot fight the new leagues because that's unfair.
The advantage Domination has over Nemesis is huge, I can't see how this is fair even slightly. I just knew after waiting for legit PvP for so long that some bullshit like this would turn up where hardcore is pitted against softcore.
I don't even know what to say, words escape me right now...
I've been playing PoE off and on since closed Beta, and I can honestly say it is one of my favorite games of all time. I frequent the forums and have always felt that GGG has moved in the right direction, so I've never felt obliged to post. HOWEVER, I can't stand and watch this mishap come to fruition. I don't PvP, but even I can see that pitting Domination against Nemesis provides an unfair advantage in favor of Domination. The economic imbalance is far too great to consider the competition fair. Therefore I will use my first forum post to argue in behalf of Aux, who has nailed the exact reasoning of why this is a bad move.
+1 to this!
Last edited by djrhymz on Nov 15, 2013, 1:08:16 AM
The Unfairness of PvPing against Softcore Characters as a Hardcore Character
To me this is quite mind boggling obvious that the thought process behind this decision is extremely lacking. The only thing I can possibly come up with is logistical reasons (remember that Chris posted that roughly ~2% of the players are playing hardcore currently). Forcing hardcore players--and Nemesis by comparison--is completely unfair and not inline at all with the competitive nature of PvP.
Winning in PvP should prove that you are the best player on your respective league--regardless of how many players play in that league. I would like to quote Mark who put it very eloquently when asked why Anarchy (the softcore league from last season) players who finished the league with a character that had zero deaths couldn't be moved to Hardcore instead of Standard.
In Hardcore, if a character dies, they're out of the league. This doesn't only affect the character, it affects the economy, because all items that character had died with them, and as far as HC is concerned, are gone forever. It is never possible in HC for you to be using an item that belonged to a character that died, because their items were taken out with them.
In Anarchy, characters can continue when they die. While we track character deaths and could move to hardcore only characters that never died in Anarchy, they would be carrying items that do not belong in a hardcore economy, because they've traded with characters who died, and obtained items tainted by death. These characters managed not to die by directly benefiting from a non-HC economy, where far more items are easily available because they aren't constantly leaving, and would carry hundreds of death-tainted items to HC with them, should such a transfer occur.
Even if we kept death counts for every individual item in the league, and didn't transfer those, we'd have characters arriving in hardcore without most of their gear, losing HC gems that were socketed in non-HC items, and fundamentally, we're still putting characters in HC who didn't avoid dying in hardcore.
Not dying in a softcore league and not dying in a hardcore league are not the same, because the softcore league has far more easily available items in the economy, due to them not leaving when characters with them die. It's easier to gear up.
A character who only "didn't die" in Anarchy did not achieve the same as a character who didn't die in HC. They probably used items that wouldn't exist in a hardcore economy. They almost certainly benefited from the larger numbers of items in the economy. If they ever played in parties with characters that died, then they made progress they could not have made in HC.
A character who didn't die in Anarchy, or any other softcore league, is not equivalent to one who doesn't die in hardcore. As such, moving characters from such leagues to hardcore would not be reasonable.
Replace Anarchy with Domination and you have summed up all the reasons that this should not be allowed in the single most competitive aspect of any game--fighting against an intelligent non-AI opponent to the death.
Let's take a quick look at the current availability of certain levels of items in the Domination marketplace (thanks to poe.xyz.is) and compare them to those on Nemesis. (I will not be going into the differences of HC and Standard in this post as I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who reads Reddit and sees the vast amount absolutely absurd perfectly rolled items for all slots available there for mirroring and other means.)
Quality of Loot - Best for Sale at Time of Posting 2H Swords DPS
Domination: 553 DPS
Nemesis: 518 DPS
Dagger DPS
Domination: 347 DPS
Nemesis: 263 DPS
I could go on but the trend is the same. Some items are a bit closer but some are so skewed
Availability of Loot - Seemingly rarest item in game? Kaom's Heart
Domination: 5
Nemesis: 1
Most items are this way for obvious reasons, nothing moves, it's all permanent for one league, and everything is liquid in the other.
I urge you to reconsider this. I can't believe that I'm really having to plea the case for not pitting Hardcore leagues against Softcore leagues against each other in PvP. This completely kills the spirit of the game and everything that I know many people have worked for since the introduction of this game at Open Beta with the promise of PvP on the horizon. Now that time has come and I feel like everything I've put countless hours in for already on the new leagues to be as ready as I can be for PvP against other players who have to deal with mortality and the perils that await in Wraeclast. I have lost a level 75 character already, and many other players have lost characters already in these leagues and they have to rebuild from scratch. On top of this we are forced to fight an uphill battle against softcore players that lose at the very most 10% of their current level, and can plow their body against a ridiculously hard boss in extremely high maps after a fresh ding with no risk of losing anything to try and push ahead in the item and--more importantly--map hunt that those of us with a single life dare never risk for the reward will never be outweight the chance of losing hundreds of hours of work and all of your best items.
I am probably one of the biggest proponents of PvP and I'm sure many people in the community can vouch that this is the only reason I play this game. For me to play handicapped--by this I mean choosing to play in a perma-death league--against softcore players is an utterly disgusting thought for me to have to deal with, and frankly I just won't do it. It really feels to me like you just punched my lovely mother her face while looking me in the eyes, then walked away.
Extremely Pissed,
Aux
I agree with Aux 100%.
Even looking at the logistical reasons, it still doesn't make sense to me. Ok, there are a LOT fewer people playing hardcore compared to standard and the same for Nemesis to Domination but that doesn't make a difference to me. When I hear of a PvP league, whether it be 1v1, 3v3, 6v6, or with CTF thrown in, I picture fighting your peers who have an equal fighting chance to become the top of your league.
One of the joys (for me) of playing PvP on my hardcore character (currently level 83 in Nemesis) is being able to try crazy skill combinations and PUSH my character to the max, knowing that I can be bested by people I'm fighting and taking the loss, or destroying those people and getting that feeling that I've just won! Also being able to see the limit of what my hardcore character can do in a fight is exhilarating. "Oh, my biggest weakness is chaos damage, glad the PvE monsters don't hit like an Aux painted truck."
To expand on the gear differences that Aux pointed out, I use a physical staff with my build and out of curiosity I checked Standard for staves. There is a staff for mirror service and 7 people have paid on average 60 exalts JUST TO MIRROR IT. I can't think of many items from my time in Hardcore or Onslaught that even sold for close to that (other than kaoms/shavs 6L). If I had all of my currency ever acquired in the three leagues since open beta started, I couldn't craft a staff like that in Hardcore, let alone buy one. So if I take my Nemesis PvPer after the league finishes and queue up only to be pitted against one of the 8 people who already have that staff, what chance in hell do I have at winning that fight?
And that isn't just based on the gear. Imagine the difference in the passive trees. I would struggle to pick up damage nodes while leveling because I constantly need to grab life nodes. If I wanted to be on a fair playing field once I hit ~level 90, then I would have to spend multiple exalts worth of regret orbs just to even the passive tree [playing field]. Then I'm stuck at what ever level I choose to respec to because I would be worthless in PvE.
In my opinion, this is the worst proposed change I've seen in PoE yet and I've been around since July 2012.
Equally pissed,
FreeMark.
please...
don't do this GGG.
Last edited by FreeMark on Nov 15, 2013, 12:26:52 AM
Looking forward to the new patch. If it's possible, why not make it an option to PvP within your league or against other leagues.
The gear argument is only half way plausible, as any two individual characters are likely to be mismatched in terms of items depending on the playing time, trading, luck etc.
If there is an option, than players that like to antagonize others across leagues can be challenged and either put up or shut up.
The people that don't want to fight cross league won't have to.
PoE Origins - Piety's story http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2081910
Are there any updates that were community driven instead of sponsored by money?
Just curious. Bunch of skills in this game are still useless or just too dangerous to use and every update consists of the following:
-More new skills to cover up the old ones we refuse to fix!
-More content designed by people who gave us money!
-More items designed by people who gave us money!
-Tons of nerfs!
Just curious when we're going to get content updates that actually matter. Maybe, you know, fixing your net-code, buffing certain skills, making it so "secondary" skills are actually usable.
When you see Searing Bond listed as a "secondary" skill the only question that comes to mind is: Why the hell would I use Searing Bond when I could just summon another totem that uses a worthwhile skill with a practical source of scaling?
This game has too many problems and GGG is just ignoring everything that should be fixed.
This game is going to suffer the same fate as D3 in time.
What a waste.
your post was a waste
they just added
1) a new Act 3 boss,
2) three new areas - The Library, Archives, Imperial Garden
3) a whole bunch of new skills - Spectral Throw, Curse on Hit, Cast when Stunned, Cast on Damage Taken
4) a huge buff to the Ranger side skill tree
5) a new class - Scion
and yet you complain about lack "content updates that actually matter"
"
"This game has too many problems and GGG is just ignoring everything that should be fixed."
you really have no clue do you ?
how long have you been playing this game ? one week ?
they've put out many patches to help with desync, load times, faster patching
"
More items designed by people who gave us money!
HA HA HA
so what if somebody paid some money to collaborate with the devs to develop some new uniques
oh, boo hoo
that was designed by somebody with money
you do realize these items can be used by ANYBODY, right ?
they don't drop just the people that paid the money
"
When you see Searing Bond listed as a "secondary" skill the only question that comes to mind is: Why the hell would I use Searing Bond when I could just summon another totem that uses a worthwhile skill with a practical source of scaling?
because your way is the only way to play, right ?
HA HA HA
gee, maybe people choose searing bond because its actually FUN
maybe they have a different style of play than you ?
maybe they find Searing Bond to be a perfect compliment to Spectral Throw ?
and lastly, if you had been paying any attention at all then you would have noticed this in the very first post of the very first page of this thread
"The Damage over Time update (described here) is likely to be ready for 1.0.2 ..."
so, uh, yeah, that means Searing Bond
LOL at you
Chris says Damage Over Time will most likely get boosted in patch 1.0.2 and then you use Searing Bond as an example of GGG not doing anything
Was the video we made about the 1.0.1 patch useful? It takes considerable time to make videos like that but if people like them then we'll keep doing them.
I can't hope enough that the PvP will be league specific.
In 1.0.2, Standard and Hardcore can fight each other. Domination and Nemesis can fight each other. The old leagues cannot fight the new leagues because that's unfair.
I can't hope enough that the PvP will be league specific.
In 1.0.2, Standard and Hardcore can fight each other. Domination and Nemesis can fight each other. The old leagues cannot fight the new leagues because that's unfair.
The Unfairness of PvPing against Softcore Characters as a Hardcore Character
To me this is quite mind boggling obvious that the thought process behind this decision is extremely lacking. The only thing I can possibly come up with is logistical reasons (remember that Chris posted that roughly ~2% of the players are playing hardcore currently). Forcing hardcore players--and Nemesis by comparison--is completely unfair and not inline at all with the competitive nature of PvP.
Winning in PvP should prove that you are the best player on your respective league--regardless of how many players play in that league. I would like to quote Mark who put it very eloquently when asked why Anarchy (the softcore league from last season) players who finished the league with a character that had zero deaths couldn't be moved to Hardcore instead of Standard.
In Hardcore, if a character dies, they're out of the league. This doesn't only affect the character, it affects the economy, because all items that character had died with them, and as far as HC is concerned, are gone forever. It is never possible in HC for you to be using an item that belonged to a character that died, because their items were taken out with them.
In Anarchy, characters can continue when they die. While we track character deaths and could move to hardcore only characters that never died in Anarchy, they would be carrying items that do not belong in a hardcore economy, because they've traded with characters who died, and obtained items tainted by death. These characters managed not to die by directly benefiting from a non-HC economy, where far more items are easily available because they aren't constantly leaving, and would carry hundreds of death-tainted items to HC with them, should such a transfer occur.
Even if we kept death counts for every individual item in the league, and didn't transfer those, we'd have characters arriving in hardcore without most of their gear, losing HC gems that were socketed in non-HC items, and fundamentally, we're still putting characters in HC who didn't avoid dying in hardcore.
Not dying in a softcore league and not dying in a hardcore league are not the same, because the softcore league has far more easily available items in the economy, due to them not leaving when characters with them die. It's easier to gear up.
A character who only "didn't die" in Anarchy did not achieve the same as a character who didn't die in HC. They probably used items that wouldn't exist in a hardcore economy. They almost certainly benefited from the larger numbers of items in the economy. If they ever played in parties with characters that died, then they made progress they could not have made in HC.
A character who didn't die in Anarchy, or any other softcore league, is not equivalent to one who doesn't die in hardcore. As such, moving characters from such leagues to hardcore would not be reasonable.
Replace Anarchy with Domination and you have summed up all the reasons that this should not be allowed in the single most competitive aspect of any game--fighting against an intelligent non-AI opponent to the death.
Let's take a quick look at the current availability of certain levels of items in the Domination marketplace (thanks to poe.xyz.is) and compare them to those on Nemesis. (I will not be going into the differences of HC and Standard in this post as I think it's pretty obvious to anyone who reads Reddit and sees the vast amount absolutely absurd perfectly rolled items for all slots available there for mirroring and other means.)
Quality of Loot - Best for Sale at Time of Posting 2H Swords DPS
Domination: 553 DPS
Nemesis: 518 DPS
Dagger DPS
Domination: 347 DPS
Nemesis: 263 DPS
I could go on but the trend is the same. Some items are a bit closer but some are so skewed
Availability of Loot - Seemingly rarest item in game? Kaom's Heart
Domination: 5
Nemesis: 1
Most items are this way for obvious reasons, nothing moves, it's all permanent for one league, and everything is liquid in the other.
I urge you to reconsider this. I can't believe that I'm really having to plea the case for not pitting Hardcore leagues against Softcore leagues against each other in PvP. This completely kills the spirit of the game and everything that I know many people have worked for since the introduction of this game at Open Beta with the promise of PvP on the horizon. Now that time has come and I feel like everything I've put countless hours in for already on the new leagues to be as ready as I can be for PvP against other players who have to deal with mortality and the perils that await in Wraeclast. I have lost a level 75 character already, and many other players have lost characters already in these leagues and they have to rebuild from scratch. On top of this we are forced to fight an uphill battle against softcore players that lose at the very most 10% of their current level, and can plow their body against a ridiculously hard boss in extremely high maps after a fresh ding with no risk of losing anything to try and push ahead in the item and--more importantly--map hunt that those of us with a single life dare never risk for the reward will never be outweight the chance of losing hundreds of hours of work and all of your best items.
I am probably one of the biggest proponents of PvP and I'm sure many people in the community can vouch that this is the only reason I play this game. For me to play handicapped--by this I mean choosing to play in a perma-death league--against softcore players is an utterly disgusting thought for me to have to deal with, and frankly I just won't do it. It really feels to me like you just punched my lovely mother her face while looking me in the eyes, then walked away.
Thanks for the feedback about the lack of Domination vs Nemesis PvP segregation. There are problems with too much segregation (especially in leagues like Hardcore that don't have as many players) but we'll take it on board. I'd love to have it entirely league-specific but only if there are enough players to make it awesome.
While I think the video for the 1.0.1 patch was very enjoyable, if it takes time away from development or otherwise improving them game then I am disinclined to approve of them.
As you said, they take considerable time.
It's just my weekend really :P
This brings to my attention the fact that this decision seems solely based on the fact that there are 2% total population on the hardcore realm. Keep in mind that the decision for pitting hardcore against softcore still doesn't help the fact that it will not be awesome for now more like 25% of the population that plays on all the hardcore ruleset leagues. Chris, come on man.
Thank you, Aux. We all were already expecting this to happen. I know quite some people who went *crazy* over buying close to perfect PvP-specific gear, making us feel like complete and utter fools.
