Pillar of the Caged God - Spectral Throw - Knockback Marauder

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siliconlife wrote:

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EysisOG wrote:

3k dps *in map* is ok. 8k *in map* is like really really good atm. At level like 90 try to aim for about 8-10k dps.

10k DPS with spectral throw and LMP? Really? (I dont think so).
I got up to like 3k-4k. I'd also like to know if more is possible (screenshots!).

This is where I am at also.

My assumption is that (hope not long winded) this build meets average dps ranges. It might not exceed or become HUGE dps wise.

Because of that, some people are claiming it is "weak" or not as good as other 2 handed ST builds. Which is fair, but not entirely accurate.

This build is nice because it's pretty cheap for a new player, imho. A four link pillar is almost no cost. So a build like this could let someone farm safely (knockback crits with staff etc) while this get better gear or ready themselves for a new builds.

So I think OP did a good job with this one. Is it king of dps? Doubtful. It sure can be cheap to achieve results though.

off topic, and pillar is a fun leveling weapon (like facebreakers)

Yeah, for leveling new characters the staff is very good, I've breezed through normal basically oneshotting everything, and took down all the bosses including dominus with no problem, and I got only a 3L pillar and a 4L chest (the other pieces were found during the game, were far from optimal)

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anju250998 wrote:

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ooops, my computation was wrong, cause you don` t gain 10% phys weapon dmg per 10 strentgh but since the final release even 16%.

so following should be correct (with 900 str):

your phys weapon-dmg will be at the end: (24+40)/2 x 14,4 x 1,25 (maybe 1,45 depends on dex) = 576 (or even 668)

but you need to consider that you don`t take any increase dmg skill points in the tree; so it`s still weaker than other decent 2-hand-weapons.

K, lets say you have base 1,25 attack speed. and 900 strength.

as you say thats 576 dps

Now add items with flat phys dam.

one single iron ring 1-4 adds (1+4)/2 x 14,4 x 1,25 = 45 dps * 2
Abyssus : 40-60 (40+60)/2 x 14,4 x 1,25 = 900 dps
Meginord : 10-20 (10+20)/2 x 14,4 x 1,25 = 270 dps

1836 dps total. and that not even counting other gear, higher attack speed, support gems.

You will need a weapon (with same att speed) that does 1200 - 2400 base dam.

Good luck finding one.

you don` t get it. the multiplier just increase the physical weapon dmg (with q20: 24-40) and not the inceased phys dmg from your other gear. the pillar doesn`t work like facebreakers...

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anju250998 wrote:

hehe true

well if my base dam gets lowered by 10 - 40 when i remove a plain iron ring i know it works.

Maybe you are right!


Test 1: 85 duelist
For the test, DPS comparison with 3L Heavy Strike on chest.

Ring: add 6-11 physical damage

HS DPS without ring:
Pillar: 3388
Mace: 6704

HS DPS with ring:
Pillar: 4065
Mace: 6903

HS DPS:
Pillar: +700 DPS
Mace : +200 DPS

-> Pillar gets more DPS from add physical than with a common mace


Test 2: lvl 82 marauder

another test with my 50k DPS FB Frenzy marauder (347 str = 544 physical damage) and an Unlinked Infernal Blow:
FB: 4k DPS
Pillar: 2k DPS

-> with standard fb gear/build, pillar does half of the damage as FB


Test 3: lvl 85 duelist, again

unlinked IB, gear (BoR, jewelry, belt) from my marauder:
pillar: 3.7k DPS
mace: 3.5k DPS

528 Str = 844 Increased Physical DPS

with hatred:

Frenzy in BoR: 11k DPS
6L GH: 11k DPS

-> with more str and FB gear, pillar and mace are nearly same DPS


Test 4
Full 85 duelist with hatred, IB in BoR
fb: 828 increased physical
pillar: 551 str = 880 increased physical (+12% attack speed on gloves)

DPS:
FB IB: 25k
pillar IB: 14k
mace IB: 16k

attack time:
FB: 0.22
pillar: 0.18
mace: 0.16

-> pillar does less damage than bad FB's, or even my mace

Test 4.1
Like test 4 with pillar, but removing shoes with 23 str, and using Heavy Strike (HS) in BoR:

HS DPS:
+23 str: 17.6k DPS
+0 str: 17.1k DPS

23 str -> 500 dps -> ~3% increased DPS
23 str = 36.8% increased physical damage

with lioneyes paws, 60str:
+60str: 19.0k DPS
+60str - (10-21 add physical from amu): 16.0k DPS

i'm confused.
Pillar seems to benefit from add physical damage, but DPS is much lower.

I slept over it.

Some facts:
- Pillar benefits from "add x physical damage"
- Pillar benefits from strength

This gives a very strict gear requirement for Pillar on most slots (even more than FB!)

But it seems like Pillar does not scale as good as FB.

A very bold theory:
Pillar is still @ 10% increased physical damage per 10 str, instead of 16.

Pillar IB: 14k DPS
FB IB: 25k DPS
Pillar IB * 1.6: 14k * 1.6 = 22.4k DPS

Anyway, free bump for this thread! And yes, I wanna make that damn staff work, and if it's the last thing I do.

okay, im totally confused now.
maybe a dev should clear this finally up and show us, how exactly the dmg is calculated with the pillar.

If we want to determine if Pillar scales with "adds x-y physical damage," we should do the following test:

1) Remove all passive skill points from character
2) Remove all equipment from character, except Pillar.
3) Check DPS of default attack.
4) Add white iron ring ("adds 1-4 physical damage")
5) Check DPS of default attack.

If Pillar scales with "adds x-y physical" the numbers from this test should verify it. The difference in DPS "should" be obvious when the ring is or isn't equipped.

A naked Marauder has 32 base STR giving the following with Pillar equipped:

48% "increased physical weapon damage" from 32 STR, based on Pillar mod.

6% "melee physical damage" from 32 STR, which is innate to all characters.

Either the "adds 1-4 physical damage" is scaled by 54% (48 + 6), or it is scaled by just the 6%.

I would do this myself, but am unable to since my HD fried. All I can do is stalk the forums on a POS laptop. I would appreciate if someone conducted the above test and posted results. It would also be great if someone with knowledge of the damage formula did this same thing, so that we can compare the results.

Here's hoping the "adds x-y physical damage" scales with Pillar!

Hey everybody, thread creator here. I've read through the replies since my last post and am happy to see such lively discussion about the topic! Couple of things:

The DPS for Spectral Throw isn't based (for the most part) on the DPS tooltip- it's based on how many hits you get with your throw. Since I prioritized knockback in my tree, gems, and curses, I am certainly getting more hits per throw than a regular Spectral Throw user (since I'm knocking them back more often into the throw's "sweet spot" which allows it to hit multiple times). Obviously a higher tooltip DPS throw will hit for more damage over the same number of hits- but I'm prioritizing the number of hits, not the damage per.

As was mentioned by previous posters, the "adds x-y physical damage" from rings, meginord's, etc. does scale with Pillar- but it does seem that the equations that are out there to calculate DPS (that I used in the OP) don't seem to factor added physical damage properly. As far as the difference in damage between legacy FaceBreakers and (new) Pillar, that's almost always been how FB was designed- a very limited skillset that can easily reach very high damage.

As far as calculating Pillar's DPS, many people are just doing (min+max) / 2 x attack speed. But as you can see in my original post, you can't calculate it that way, as it has to be determined as hits that happen in between it's minimum damage and maximum damage. The (more accurate) way to caluclate it would be to calculate the weapon's minimum hit damage (factoring in the bonus from str and weapon quality) to find the minimum damage value, then do the same for the maximum. Each of those two numbers can then be plugged into the attack you wish to find the damage for (so heavy strike would get multiplied by 1.5 at this point), then multiply that by attack speed (factoring in the bonus from dex and any bonuses from Kraityn or passive tree) to find a minimum and maximum DPS number- you'd then add them together and divide by 2 for average DPS. I think this is where I made a mistake- I calculated the weapon's DPS (including attack speed) and then tried to factor it into attacks- but I should have done so with the minimum and maximum attack values, rather than trying to factor in the speed at that point.

As for my personal experience with the character up to now, I did get him up to lvl 61 and was doing fine in solo and dual play (Keep in mind I only had Pillar and Meginord's as far as uniques I had wanted to use- if I had gotten ahold of an Abyssus or Bringer of Rain I'm sure I would have done massive damage). I have more recently been playing other concepts however as the person I regularly played this character with also wanted to try new things. If I make it further on this character or find another unique that's beneficial to this build I will provide another update as to the state of the build.

EDIT: One other thing I should point out is that the tooltip DPS must work on the assumption that you are hitting one enemy every attack x your attack speed. That's why I said Spectral throw's DPS isn't super accurate- because it's designed to be used to hit multiple times. But the DPS tooltip can't predict how many times you will hit, can it? Therefore, your DPS will vary (greatly) for throw depending on how many hits you get.

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KnowledgeJunkie wrote:

The DPS for Spectral Throw isn't based (for the most part) on the DPS tooltip- it's based on how many hits you get with your throw.

Yeah, DPS for ST is "low" compared to other skills because it can hit multiple times (2 times at least, if you and the enemy is not moving and has enough hp).

Imho tooltip DPS is calculated for like 1 enemy, 1 hit. So why not just calculate with that? Also, afaik, ST does not "shotgun", not all 3 projectiles from LMP can hit the same enemy.

Anyway, i'm more interested _why_ Pillar does less damage than FB's currently :-)

Really interesting build! Anyone doing this build right now care to give some feedback and how it's working out and nemesis viability? :D