A disturbing trend (Games are supposed to be hard)

Recently I have noticed a lot of people starting to complain that certain things are too hard or certain things do too much damage. I believe that in the rush to become the richest player with the biggest... er weapon, some people have forgotten what games are about.

Certainly there has to be balance, things should never be impossible for the average player. However games are supposed to be hard, especially games like PoE. It is (In my opinion) perfectly acceptable to die 26 times trying to kill that dam cold spear guy in the first act in first difficulty on the island, because when you do finally kill him without a death you feel you have accomplished something. You learn the mechanics, build a defense, and WIN. In end game if you stuff up, forget to cast, run or click the right thing then one should die (in game).

One should not jump on the forums or global chat and complain that armor/evasion/luck is broken and demand something to be done about it. If you don't like the challenge of making something work you have two options, one involves attempting to take a new approach and the other involves a park and a kite.

Games are supposed to be hard.


(Please note this post does not apply to those few people who are already winners and then provide constructive feedback on adjusting difficulty)

Hmm, guess what, the trend might be showing what people actually find fun and what they don't. Also it has nothing to do with the rush to become richest player with the biggest weapon at all, those are completely two different unrelated approaches to the gameplay. Often you see in those trendy posts that the people want challenge just don't want any additional hassle.

Anyway I made this post a while ago, I think it is still very true http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/53499

Unfortunately what people think is fun and what people actually find fun are often two quite different things, just consult any game developer or psychologist and they will quickly confirm this.

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Often you see in those trendy posts that the people want challenge just don't want any additional hassle.

I am all for people discussing balance changes and debating the difficulty, If you understand enough about the game to make an informed comment then by all means post away about the game being too difficult in certain area's. I personally believe that there are a lot of unbalanced things when it comes to difficulty.
What I am saying is that people who have 'had a bad day' should take a step back and look at if the problem is with the game or the player before they go demanding the game be changed. :)

people have different tastes. gaming isn't just a hobby for hardcore nerds anymore. Everyone from grandma to your little sister plays games these days. There are a lot of demographics all wanting something different all wanting varying degrees of difficulty. sadly us hardcore gamer types are now a minority and the big guys want to sell the most copies so they go with easily accessible games, the CoD clones and things like that. Thankfully with the recent indie explosion and crowd funding getting ever more popular we are starting to see a resurgence of the games a lot of us grew up on and are disappointed by whats being offered today. PoE is a result of this. That Obsidian kickstarter for Project Eternity has reached over 3 million dollars. Chris Roberts and his dream space sim are doing well so far. Its obvious the demand is there and the best part is its happening right under the noses of the big publishers who were convinced there was no money to be made with these types of games. The next few years are going to be awesome for us hardcore types. I personally believe this trend is on its way to a happy balance between hardcore and casual games.

I agree that PoE is meant to be hard. It's one of the things I love about it. PoE is challenging and has complexity. If it only had complexity without being challenging, there wouldn't be much reason to try to perfect your build, or not get surrounded, or to pay attention to your resistances. If it only had challenge without complexity it would just be an arcade game and wouldn't warrant putting hundreds of hours into.

And even more important: Challenging games are becoming more and more rare. Developers/publishers have, for many years now, been shying away from difficulty/complexity to satisfy fans who want to be able to beat every game they play, and to appeal to a larger market.

The market is flooded with easy/medium games that have no depth and very little replayability. It would be a damn shame if PoE became just another mediocre game that didn't provide a challenging, complex & deep experience.

"games are supposed to be hard" is BS

games are supposed to be fun,end of story

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Dashtun wrote:

games are supposed to be fun,end of story

Fun is subjective. I don't have fun with most of the current games on the market that don't present any real challenge to the player. That's the main reason I stop playing a game: It's just boring when you almost never die, or when the death penalty is very forgiving. I find myself daydreaming and cannot focus on a game if it is too easy and lacks depth.

Again, the point is that there are already tons of options on the market if your version of fun is a game that is forgiving and doesn't punish poor decisions. Why should EVERY game cater to what you find fun? Shouldn't there be at least some games that cater to what I find fun?

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Axebane wrote:

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Dashtun wrote:

games are supposed to be fun,end of story

Fun is subjective. I don't have fun with most of the current games on the market that don't present any real challenge to the player. That's the main reason I stop playing a game: It's just boring when you almost never die, or when the death penalty is very forgiving. I find myself daydreaming and cannot focus on a game if it is too easy and lacks depth.

hard is also subjective,how much hard is hard enough for you? (if you know what i mean...)

you cant make a game thats hard in terms of hardcore gamers because casuals wont play it,it has to be easy to some extent

After reading many posts on the perceived easiness or difficulty of PoE at present, it appears that there are a variety of expectations for the game by the players.

The real question is “What is the intended Target Market Niche of GGG developers?” Do they intend to include the full range of players, from comfortable casual gamers to full hardcore masochists? Or, are they intending a more focused difficulty range?

If there is a more focused difficulty range intended, I have not read an official description of it.

It would be appreciated if this were to be made clear. Then potential players and contributors could decide their gaming path based on their compatibility.

Until then, we can only speculate, and squabble together.

I agree with you that hard games are fun, but games arnt "supposed" to be hard. It all depends on the game/genre. I do hate how some people complain about hard games and whine until it gets fixed. Did you know they are planning to make an "easy mode" for dark souls? Lol... sad days, but oh well.

In a game like this though, it kinda seems more cheap to have things super hard rather than challenging. A game like this requires outleveling/outgearing content, with little to do with "skill". A bit of strategy goes a long way, but some things are just unavoidable, especially when you're melee, and just becomes frustrating. If it were possible to skillfully dodge every hit in this game- hell, make it so I get 1-2 shot for all I care. I love those types of challenges personally. In a genre like this though-especially when lag plays a major factor- getting 1 shot by vaals bomb can even become annoying (a completely avoidable attack).

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, but one thing you got to realize is that casual/bad players dominate the market these days, and most companies will go for the almighty dollar.

P.S. I am not saying this game needs to be nerfed or anything... just pointing out a logical fallacy in your statement is all.