A disturbing trend (Games are supposed to be hard)

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walinex wrote:

The real question is “What is the intended Target Market Niche of GGG developers?” Do they intend to include the full range of players, from comfortable casual gamers to full hardcore masochists? Or, are they intending a more focused difficulty range?

You don't have to speciulate because the answer can be found in the interviews and videos and Beta Manifesto forum.

GGG very much considers PoE to be a hardcore game. They don't seem to have any intention to try to mold the game into something that appeals to the largest possible market, but are instead trying to provide an experience that is becoming more and more rare in the gaming market: A deep, complex and challenging game with "character permanence" a strong economy, and intense competitions via several types of leagues/ladders.

They have a vision for the game, and they are sticking to it even if it means a smaller market share.

Here's a small quote from the Beta Manifesto forum that gives you an idea of what I'm talking about:

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Chris wrote:

Path of Exile is going to become a lot harder in some places. We understand that new players want to be able to play through at least the first difficulty level with relative ease, but we also feel that our higher difficulty levels are not challenging enough.

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Technomage wrote:

*snip*

Games are supposed to be hard.


(Please note this post does not apply to those few people who are already winners and then provide constructive feedback on adjusting difficulty)

I find posts/comments like yours to be much more detrimental then people complaining about the difficulty of things. Aside from the ridiculous assumptions you make about people, and the condescending tone of referring to the few "winners", complaining about complaining adds even less then the original complaints that are actually based on something important.

As you say, you are seeing more complaints now about difficulty of certain mobs/bosses. This will increase dramatically when open beta starts. There are certain fights that are simply ridiculous for the vast majority of todays gamers.

Hailrake is a good example you referred to. 99% of gamers do not find it remotely acceptable to die 26 times to learn a fight. I myself have had a lot of trouble with him, considering hes able to cast his spear while not even on the screen. Fighting random mobs and having a spear hit you from off screen that does 20% and freezes you is not difficult, its bad design.

Oak is another example of a badly designed fight. People have died instantly to him.

Merveil is probably the most common complaint I see. I actually find this fight to be reasonable, but I suppose thats part of the issue, different people have different experiences.

Theres a fine line between a challenge and broken design. Its a problem D3 had, which is possibly part of the reason theres an increase in complaints. PoE is mostly getting it right.

Either way, people complaining is whats supposed to happen. Its a game in beta on the Internet. If you don't like it you can ignore them or try and help. Making assumptions and being condescending doesn't remotely help the matter.

Also, "games are supposed to be hard" is a ridiculous statement. They are supposed to be fun and nothing else. What that means is different for every individual.

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Dashtun wrote:

you cant make a game thats hard in terms of hardcore gamers because casuals wont play it,it has to be easy to some extent

Sure you can, and the market is already flooded with casual games. It's kind of ironic actually. The big companies think the only way to make enough profit is to make games that appeal to both hardcore players and casual players. The trend has gone so far toward the casual side that the market is now lopsided and there are many people who want to spend money on challenging games but don't have anything good to choose from.

GGG might not be able to appeal to most casual gamers with PoE, but they will also be tapping into the hardcore market that has been craving more choices for a while now. The $1.24 million dollars that players have already shelled out for a free-to-play game to help support the game before it has even entered Open Beta is a strong indication that there is definitely a market for hardcore games.

Agree 100% with OP

But perhaps if they cry the very hardest, they too can be winners.

Winners at crying.

It is still winning.

I'm not sure I see the connection between complaining about balance and complaining about difficulty. They are 2 different things.

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Hailrake is a good example you referred to. 99% of gamers do not find it remotely acceptable to die 26 times to learn a fight. I myself have had a lot of trouble with him, considering hes able to cast his spear while not even on the screen. Fighting random mobs and having a spear hit you from off screen that does 20% and freezes you is not difficult, its bad design.

Oak is another example of a badly designed fight. People have died instantly to him.

GGG has intentionally made the optional side quests much more challenging than the main areas. There is a reason Hailrake is so powerful. It's the same reason that the Ship Graveyard Cave is so dangerous and the Church Dungeon too.

The average gamer seems to have fallen into the trap of assuming that every character they play should be able to defeat every enemy and succeed against every challenge the game presents. How is THAT good game design?

You don't have to fight Hailrake and you don't have to fight Oak. If you don't wish to attempt those fights the game allows you to skip them.

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Technomage wrote:

Recently I have noticed a lot of

Games are supposed to be hard.

QFT

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Axebane wrote:

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Hailrake is a good example you referred to. 99% of gamers do not find it remotely acceptable to die 26 times to learn a fight. I myself have had a lot of trouble with him, considering hes able to cast his spear while not even on the screen. Fighting random mobs and having a spear hit you from off screen that does 20% and freezes you is not difficult, its bad design.

Oak is another example of a badly designed fight. People have died instantly to him.

GGG has intentionally made the optional side quests much more challenging than the main areas. There is a reason Hailrake is so powerful. It's the same reason that the Ship Graveyard Cave is so dangerous and the Church Dungeon too.

The average gamer seems to have fallen into the trap of assuming that every character they play should be able to defeat every enemy and succeed against every challenge the game presents. How is THAT good game design?

You don't have to fight Hailrake and you don't have to fight Oak. If you don't wish to attempt those fights the game allows you to skip them.

you can skip oak and get beast for it

win win

but oak is fun to fight

because he is so beast himself

man that was scary on hard core

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Axebane wrote:

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Hailrake is a good example you referred to. 99% of gamers do not find it remotely acceptable to die 26 times to learn a fight. I myself have had a lot of trouble with him, considering hes able to cast his spear while not even on the screen. Fighting random mobs and having a spear hit you from off screen that does 20% and freezes you is not difficult, its bad design.

Oak is another example of a badly designed fight. People have died instantly to him.

GGG has intentionally made the optional side quests much more challenging than the main areas. There is a reason Hailrake is so powerful. It's the same reason that the Ship Graveyard Cave is so dangerous and the Church Dungeon too.

The average gamer seems to have fallen into the trap of assuming that every character they play should be able to defeat every enemy and succeed against every challenge the game presents. How is THAT good game design?

You don't have to fight Hailrake and you don't have to fight Oak. If you don't wish to attempt those fights the game allows you to skip them.

Good point, and yes that is exactly the mentality of the casual/bad players of this generation. If the hardest difficulty is too hard, don't do it! Games like god of war, halo, etc had extremely difficult levels such as titan mode and elite, and catered to the hardcore crowd while also to the casual crowd.

But in an rpg style game, having a mode like titan or elite is a very touchy issue, as everyone feels entitled to do hell (d2) inferno (d3) or merciless (poe), as it is more or less the point of the game. So a game like this will NEVER cater to both crowds, unless people are happy not making it through the hardest difficulty.

Being a hardcore gamer myself, I am happy to hear that GGG is putting their foot down and sticking to what they believe.

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Axebane wrote:

The average gamer seems to have fallen into the trap of assuming that every character they play should be able to defeat every enemy and succeed against every challenge the game presents. How is THAT good game design?

Are you serious? Thats the definition of good game design. If GGG does their job and makes every build reasonably balanced, of course you should be able to clear everything.

This is the first time in over 25 years of playing games Ive seen/heard of someone suggesting that not being able to play the entire game on any given character is good game design. I seriously hope I've been trolled.