Official Blender Post! Lets theory craft for 1.2! 123k Cleave DPS!
" I've also thought about this ring. It does seem very nice providing the extra damage and the life/mana leech. Of course, if you don't have good enough resistance from your other gears then maybe sacrificing the resistance from a ring might be tough. But if not, I feel like it might be a good addition. However, I do not own this ring as it is only from Domination/Nemesis leagues. Maybe someone has personal experience using this ring with this build. Warband: IGN: Benko
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Hey there,
I am relatively new to the game, but very fond of all kind of mechanics. I want to share some my research so far because I see many clueless people about important aspects of the game. First, 30% less critical damage from enemies is HUGE. It is the sole reason for going marauder starting point. Let's say you have 5000 hp. And the enemy swings for 7000 crit (or multiple smaller crits from many enemies or just that titty bitch from museum, doesn't matter). Those 2 points will turn that 7k crit into a 4,9k hit and you will survive. In order to survive the hit without the crit reduction nodes, you will need 2k more hit points from the passive tree which, you can imagine, will cost many dozens of life nodes. You can say you are not getting critically hit and/or don't die anyway. Maybe, maybe you don't notice it but crits are the reason your HP drops faster sometimes and without them you would need lot less defense anyway and can spec out of them if you are so certain. And / or you are being lucky so far and someday you will be critted 20 times in a row worth minus two levels of experience. Your choice. Second, Heart of the Oak is a waste of 2pts if you are using cyclone (can't be stunned while spinning). And you should be using cyclone because of "fourth". Third, rapiers and thrusting swords have range 7, swords are 6, axes and maces are 5. Range helps with dmg / life on hit / leech, especially when desync happens with cyclone. Range helps with mana cost of cyclone (targeting further but still hitting, reduces uses per second). Why use cyclone? Because of: Fourth, heavy math time Cyclone vs Dual Strike and comparison of support gems
Spoiler
Here is a list with all the details about the main attacks and their support gems (all numbers are for lvl 20 and q 20 if quality contributes to the damage):
Added Fire Damage: *1,4485 /1,09 ~= *1,33 (doesn't scale with Hatred, so I am deducting missed opportunity like this: Imagine you deal 100 dps, with 1,4485 physical multiplier and 36% hatred, it would become 100 * 1,4485 * 1,36 = 196,996 dps. But with 1,4485 non-physical multiplier and 36% hatred it becomes 100 + 44,85 + 36 = 180,85 dps. 196,996 / 180,85 ~= 1,09. So you deal 9% less dmg overall because the damage increase from this support gem is not physical as are all other support gems we will be are comparing, thus I am representing it as a *1,33 gem to stand out in the big gems picture) Cold Penetration: +10% cold, cold *1,35 (cold) = cold *1,485 Won't do the math (yet) as with added fire damage, because everyone can see it isn't a strong gem, just a theoretical filler last gem for 6L pure dps cyclone. Nice synergy with Soul Taker btw. Faster Attacks: +54% attack speed Melee Physical Damage: +10% phy, *1,49 Concentrated Effect: *1,69 Multistrike (mana conservation but delayed responsiveness because performing the skill 3 times): +57% phy, *2,07 (attack speed), *0,64 (less dmg) Melee Splash: +67% phy, *0,69 (less dmg aoe; if you care for single target, don't use the gem!) Cyclone: +76% phy, +38% as, *0,8 (40% less damage but hits two times per spin) Dual Strike: +57% phy, (crit from quality is not taken into account since RT is better damage than finding good items with accuracy AND all the rest. For theoretical perfect gear set, it would matter, but then the passive tree should be really different and not a topic for this thread) I am taking my own passive tree and gear at level 75 as reference, netting me +359% phy and +66% as (with 3 frenzy 81%). It shouldn't be too far off from rest of you, although I haven't reached yet the ranger's starting area nodes. Looking into those numbers here are some curious facts about those gems: * Dual Strike + Melee Splash does less damage than a Cyclone and takes one more socket * Multistrike is crap for Cyclone as is Concentrated Effect for Dual Strike. But Concentrated Effect is more damage than Multistrike. Again Cyclone wins. * Multistrike is great for mana conservation (at the end it repeats the attack 2 more times non-voluntary but doesn't deduct mana). But it has a downside - this auto performing locks your character into swinging and you lose control of your character meanwhile. This is mentioned for people hating cyclone for depriving them of mobility. Well, at least cyclone does dmg WHILE moving, which adds towards a faster clear and looking at the mechanics, Multistrike turns to be hindering as well and, cmon, really, you should learn to use cyclone with held button in minimum range not target it half a screen away. And if you have mana/bm_life issues with it, go farm docks or just delete the game. Again Cyclone > Multistrike or at least the gap is almost closed in terms of steering. * In terms of upgrading quality of the gems, priority is the following: Cyclone & Melee Splash -> Faster Attacks -> Melee Physical Damage & Multistrike -> Added Fire Damage * In terms of gem's relative dps contribution, here is the order and their estimated coefficients: Concentrated Effect (*1,69) -> Multistrike (*1,59) -> Melee Physical Damage (*1,52) -> Added Fire (*1,33 without cold pen | *1,29 with cold pen) -> Faster Attacks (*1,3 DS | *1,25 Cyc) -> Cold Pen (*1,10) -> Melee Splash (*0,77) Those numbers are based on the 6L setups I will describe below. Let's have those two 6L pure dps setups for cyclone and dual strike and calculate their precise true dps coefficients. Those coefficients must be multiplied by your combined weapons dps (and multiplied by 1,1 for DW ofc) and that should be your skill tooltip and real dps (except for cyclone, where tooltip dps should be multiplied by 2 for the real dps because the game doesn't account for cyclone hitting with both weapons every spin cycle) 1) Dual Strike + Melee Splash + Added Physical + Multistrke + Added Fire + Faster Attacks 2) Cyclone + Concentrated + Added Physical + Added Fire + Faster Attacks + Cold Penetration I will add all increased physical damage modifiers, including gear and passive, making a multiplication group, then the multiplication group of increased attack speed form passives, gear, frenzy, gems, then all multipliers form the gems, finally the elemental damage multiplication group: 1) (100+359+57+67+10+57)/100 * (100+81+54)/100 * 1,49 * 2,07 * 0,64 * 0,69 * (1 + 0,4485 + 0,36) = = 37,625771230632 2) (100+359+76+10)/100 * (100+81+38+54)/100 * 0,8 * 1,69 * 1,49 * (1 + 0,4485 + 0,36 * 1,485) = = 59,438347112508 Cyclone setup has a 58% bigger coefficient than Dual Strike + melee splash. It doesn't even need Cold Penetration and Faster Attacks to be 15% better! So use it safely with life gain on hit, blood magic or whatever and be sure it is still better. Cba doing the math but something tells me that removing melee splash and replacing it with cold penetration in the DS setup will make them more equal, but Cyclone will still win because it will be an aoe! TL;DR: 30% crit reduction > all Don't spec Heart of the Oak, use 2pts to buy a beer or two. Slight dps loss is worth the sacrifice, if you can get similar longer range weapon Cyclone > Dual Strike Last edited by Septemvri#2583 on Nov 20, 2013, 6:09:47 AM
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" 14k dps without insane weapons? Whaaat? Can u post ur gear and skill tree? |
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" sorry but... he is the OP so check the first post of this thread Master 8: All
CyclERa 93 TS/Puncture, CyclEWS 89 LL-ST thread /463641 GMT+8 |
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" 1. Cyclone > Dual Strike + Melee Splash.... I can agree with this, however Cyclone isn't perfect and is probably the less safe choice. The cyclone tooltip is so wrong when it comes to displaying damage and honestly should be ignored. Kill speed > numbers. 2. Heart of Oak = not so great for cycloners. Hmm.. yes and no. Like I said above, Cyclone is not the safest ability. The desync problem it has, and the stupid way it stops working if you're near a wall or misc object is pretty lame. When this happens you are no longer immune to stuns that Cyclone provides. The node is also a health and life regen boost in addition to its 30% stun avoidance. So people running Blood Rage with poor Chaos Resist should find this node favorable. 3. Crit reduction > All. Your math of this is actually incorrect (not to be mean)... it is significantly less effective than you're suggesting it is. Enemy Critical Strike Multiplier Reduction- You take 15% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes This means a 2000 damage hit with 150% critical strike multipliers becomes 3000 total damage. So... 2000+(1000*.7)=2700 -- 300 damage reduction Or.. the wording could be funky and it could be a 15%(x2) reduced critical strike multiplier, which would be.. 2000*(1.5-.3)=2400 -- 600 damage reduction You were suggesting: (2000+1000)*.7=2100 -- 900 damage reduction Perhaps someone smarter than I could clear this up, or find an clearer explanation of the function of this node. |
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" artarion and whoever is next to be mean with replies about that man`s post, do not be low life haters. The nodes descriptions are simple: 30% not less not more. Your math is terrible and try to think 3 times the same thing before ask. Or let me help you out: do 30% of 3000 and look at your result again and see the problem. Now about that man, it`s incredibly nice what he did. Posting builds it`s one good thing but game specific mechanics are the key to special more powerful and a lot better developed combination and builds, not just this one. I personally thank him for his contribution. |
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" Wait... wut? I didn't think I was being offensive in any way. I was simply trying to add to the conversation by pointing things out from another perspective. In fact I agree with most of their post, and have been doing similar things with my own build. I too use cyclone and think it's a better skill than dual strike, and state the tooltip damage should be ignored and focus on the speed in which you kill monsters. I also do not have the Heart of Oak node (although for different reasons), I merely stated why (in my opinion) it is still a decent node for people using Blood Rage + Cyclone. Lastly... I don't believe my math is all that terrible. The node clearly states "You take 15% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes" and not "reduced damage." The "extra" in there is referring to the damage bonus added to the base damage because of a crit. Therefore the base damage is still 2000, and is not reduced by the node. 150% of 2000 is 1000, so the 30% reduction is applied only to the 1000 extra/bonus damage of a crit. I attempted to correct their one mistake as politely as I could and was not criticizing them in any way. As this thread has well over 100 pages, lots of people have contributed and shared their own ideas. And I encourage this because there will never be only one way to do something in this game when you have a skill and passive tree as complex as it is in this game. |
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" Thank you very much for the critical damage multiplier clarification. The node tooltip is written in an obvious way and there is no excuse for me to misinterpret it. @taekwando the tooltips say "You take 30% reduced (reduced from the original 30 EXTRA) extra damage from critical strikes". Without the nodes the game thinks "You take 30% extra damage from critical strikes". With the nodes it becomes "You take 0% extra damage" as if you take normal damage. Negative values are possible, I guess, as with many other mechanics like resists. Anyway, here are the new calcs: Monsters have base modifer 130% (from wiki). This means 1000 dmg normal hit would become 1000 * 1,3 = 1300 Monsters can have this base modifier increased (monster affixes?) or decreased (those two nodes, enfeble, etc). Although a specific string "powerful crits" haunts my mind, on the monster affixes page on the wiki there are no auras or affixes that modify the critical DAMAGE multiplier, neither was I able to find anything in goodle. For now I will assume they don't exist actually. Let's see the most common case: enfeeble lvl 5 (for codt1) for -24%, the passive nodes for 2x -15% Monster hits normally: 1000 dmg Monster crits: 1000 * 1,30 = 1300 dmg Monster with the passive nodes crits: 1000 * (1,30 - 0,30) = 1000 dmg Monster with enfeeble crits: 1000 * (1,30 - 0,24) = 1060 dmg Monster with enfeeble and the passive nodes crits: 1000 * (1,30 - 0,24 - 0,30) = 760 dmg The difference in EHP between crit and nodes reduced crit is 30% and between enfeebled crit and enfeebled nodes reduced crit is +40% For reference, the difference between the numbers in my previous post (1000*0,7 and 1000) is 43%. So the corrected numbers are rather close to the ones I nerdraged about in the previous post, those passives are still too damn good :) As for cyclone mobility, yeah, everyone knows how it stucks or desyncs annoyingly. If you're stuck you figure it out rather fast and change direction / leap / whirl away. You don't have much time to be stunned. During desync the trick here is to continue spinning and hopefully after the resync, the server would have granted you the LL / LGoH you deserve. Btw it only desyncs your serverside position, not the action you are performing. Even desynced, you still spin and cannot be stunned. Last edited by Septemvri#2583 on Nov 20, 2013, 9:04:10 AM
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" The base damage is 100%. Monsters have a default Critical Strike Multiplier of 130%. The Extra Damage from Critical Strikes is 30%. The passive is [You take 15% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes], with both they are 30%. You take 30% reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes, which is 30% reduced from the 30% extra damage. Final multiplier would be 100% *( 100% + 30%*(100%-30%) ) = 100% * (100% + 30%*0.7) = 100% * (100% + 21%) = 121% damage. The funny thing of your calculation is that with "Reduced Extra Damage from Critical Strikes" the monsters will do less damage during a critical hit than a normal hit. |
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I little bit off topit and maybe a dumb question, but - I saw a lot of current gear of 70+ heroes and no one has item rarity from their gear? Am I missing something or do they have separate gear with hugh item rarity? :)
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