25 orbs of fusing and still no 4L

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McHuberts wrote:

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Tarmalen wrote:

Just to be clear, rng tied to item attributes are fine. Rng tied to ability layout is broken.

+1

Everyone speaking of 4 link item as in "My build is broken without one" when the fact is that you can work with only 1 or 2 sockets and still be able to progress.

3 links is very easy to get and is very powerful.

The problem only occus when people makes builds without having the item to backup the build, if you dont have lots of currency to spend 4 links might not be the way to go on every item.

This game does not ruin your abilities it gives you possibilities to enhance them. 1 socket = ability

The problem isn't just that people want to go from 3 sockets to 4 sockets in all cases, it's that they have to "upgrade" from 4 socket items to 3 socket items with higher stats, reducing their DPS by 30% or something in the process. It doesn't really matter how it fits in with the story or the nature of the game, it's just not fun to make negative progress. Nobody wants to use level 15 armor at level 65 because they have never gotten a 4 socket upgrade and a 3 socket upgrade would compromise the build significantly.

We talk about spending the currency to get 4 sockets but there's no guarantee you'll ever get one no matter how many you spend. If it were possible to save up enough of them to guarantee a particular number of sockets or links, then there would be no complaints. Take the expected number of Jeweler's Orbs it takes to produce a 4, 5, and 6 socket item and then make vendor recipes so that a stack of that many Jeweler's Orbs + an item = the same item with that many sockets. Statistically, nothing has changed. It still takes, on average, the same number of orbs to make the same items. It just makes it so that you no longer have to bang your head against the RNG in the case that luck is really, really not on your side. You can still gamble in the hopes to get it with fewer--maybe far fewer--orbs.

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devmoon wrote:

Everyone speaking of 4 link item as in "My build is broken without one" when the fact is that you can work with only 1 or 2 sockets and still be able to progress.

3 links is very easy to get and is very powerful.

The problem only occus when people makes builds without having the item to backup the build, if you dont have lots of currency to spend 4 links might not be the way to go on every item.

This game does not ruin your abilities it gives you possibilities to enhance them. 1 socket = ability

You really are missing the point.

I don't care if its 2SL or 5SL. I want to move a skill from one item to another. Can I do this? Yes is the answer. Will I do this, hell no. Why not? Well it takes a ridiculous amount of orbs. Orbs that are rng.

Maybe I want to test the difference of my skills with a few different support gems. Can I do this? Yes is the answer. Will I do this, hell no. Why not? Well it takes a ridiculous amount of orbs. Orbs that are rng.

Take away the rng from chromatics, fusing, and jewelers.

Example:
Chromatics can affect one socket and give any color.
Fusings can affect one link between sockets either linking or delinking.
Jewelers can create or destroy one socket.


GGG can adjust drop rates after running some metrics.

Again that is an example.

This gives players complete freedom to tinker with their abilities and leaves the rng fun in tact with attributes of an item.

Nobody wants to see 1-3 weeks of farming flushed down the drain on an "attempt" to put an ability on one piece of gear.

In reality a player will get extremely frustrated watching a huge mound of orbs disappear with nothing to show. Some people will say hell to the no the first time. Others will hang in there and do this a couple times before bailing.

Personally I just wait til I see a decent level drop with enough sockets. Then I burn my fusings and chromatics. Then I will use alchs, chaos etc.. This allows me one upgrade every couple weeks depending on how many fusings/chromatics I have hoarded.

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ampdecay wrote:

I disagree with everything that is said in this post.

1. I thought the selling point was a free to play DARK FANTASY game. (at least it was for me, had no idea about orbs or sockets or any of that just watched the templar trailer, fell in love with the aesthetics and started playing.

2. I'm level 64 and have no 4 links so idk what you are talking about, I'd rather have rares with resists and +HP than sockets any day.

Let's get real. The ARPG market is oversaturated, and this will only continue. What sets PoE apart is their item structure, specifically not having to grind for many hours for a mere chance of an upgrade like that other game.

And for the non socket based orbs, it does this well.

For the socket orbs, it reiterates this same critical flaw.

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Tarmalen wrote:

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devmoon wrote:

Everyone speaking of 4 link item as in "My build is broken without one" when the fact is that you can work with only 1 or 2 sockets and still be able to progress.

3 links is very easy to get and is very powerful.

The problem only occus when people makes builds without having the item to backup the build, if you dont have lots of currency to spend 4 links might not be the way to go on every item.

This game does not ruin your abilities it gives you possibilities to enhance them. 1 socket = ability

You really are missing the point.

... lots of text

Ofcourse no one wants to get a worse item but in the end we have to make choices and sacrifices, thats one of the core parts of this game.

If you have a 4 link item and want to upgrade to a rare with only 3 links but the stats are better, then you have to decide do I want my ability slightly stronger or get more life/res/stats...

Yea some choices and tough but thats what in the end makes it interesting to play, one reason D3 feels like an endless grindfest is because you can easily judge if an item is better and there are no different types of items so no tough choices.

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devmoon wrote:

Yea some choices and tough but thats what in the end makes it interesting to play, one reason D3 feels like an endless grindfest is because you can easily judge if an item is better and there are no different types of items so no tough choices.

That would make sense if there were an actual trade-off in the way items were rolled. If you had to make a choice between four or five sockets and higher stats because more sockets reduced the maximum stat rolls on items, or maybe each socket above three counted as an additional affix, then what you say is true. But instead the sacrifice you make is just because you got unlucky, and you could have both things at once if only the RNG rolled differently. That makes it hard to feel good taking a downgrade in DPS to get an upgrade in something else, since you know someone else has the best of both worlds and doesn't have to make any trade-offs.

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vvvolte wrote:

That would make sense if there were an actual trade-off in the way items were rolled. If you had to make a choice between four or five sockets and higher stats because more sockets reduced the maximum stat rolls on items, or maybe each socket above three counted as an additional affix, then what you say is true.

That is not true. The possibility of finding ultimate perfect item doesn't change the fact that you have to make choices before you find one like that. I had good 3L on helm and chest, I had some random sockets on gloves and boots, but their stats were good. When I had a helmet to upgrade waiting for some time but I did not because I would loose my sockets. What I did was use orbs on gloves, since I didn't expect to upgrade my unique soon. I chose using worse helmet with sockets that were good for me and good gloves with bad sockets. That is a very simple trade-off in choosing items. You can also easily get some white 4L from vendor or trade and just roll transmutation+alternations to cheaply find something useful. Possibly it will replace your cool rare but it's a hard choice and obvious trade-off.

When I finally got 4L on gloves then I upgraded helmet. I was also able to roll sockets on my new helmet then without hurting my build so I got 4L on helmet improving further. I used a lot of orbs but every time I used them, I could only improve.

I did not realize value of different orbs and when is it worth to use it until I tinkered a bit on my first high level char. Now I think random system is good, you just have to use RNG to your advantage - use it only when you can improve, not when it has 50% to screw you. The only thing I don't like is extremely bad luck, no one should have to use 25 orbs to get a 4L. That's why I proposed a forced solution after X tries earlier in this thread.

You do not yet completely understand the debilitating effect of having rng tied directly to ability layout.

I am not dogging you, I am merely pointing out that you are looking at this thru rose tinted glasses that has a new car smell.

Later on down the road towards late game and end game you will want to have the tools necessary to overcome the challenges that GGG will be throwing at you.

High armor gear, high hp gear, high es gear, high resist gear...the list is long. Part of playing is sizing up and demolishing what the game has in regards to challenge.

The choice should be which set of items and abilities will help me crush the angry hoard of monsters that is trying to rip my face off.

Instead we are faced with choices like, do I continue to hold onto the 60+ chromatics so I can "attempt" to get an ability layout on an item or use the ability without full support since rng said no. Those are not choices, those are limitations.

That and sidegrades are not choices.

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Those are not choices, those are limitations.

That is probably the dumbest statement on this forum I have seen.

Limitations are always reason for choices. Unlimited skill points would mean no choice but taking every single node in skill tree. If for a marauder you could have any rare with max hp, regen and resist rolls you would use them and not care about choosing right gear.

If you are asking for unlimited 6L items by making orbs always upgrade, it's the same as the examples above. Of course having gear with maximum number of white sockets could still make interesting system but game difficulty would have be scaled up to make up for it. It would just take away 1 layer, you'd have 1 less choice and one less awesome thing to aim for.

Fusing, chaos and other orbs are random, but so is the whole loot system. You are given orbs in addition to finding gear through drops and if you are using them in smart way, you will get a winning roll sometimes without really loosing. You also have additional option of trading them.

You can have game with no random drops, with always same paths and same awesome items in right places. This would be close to Baldur's Gate or many other games and they are awesome. They however lack excitement of loot and would lead to every player use the same cool stuff.

With randomness 1 player is limited to use 6L armor with sucky stats when other found an awesome rare chest and will eventually upgrade it to 5L. This is the reason why you will be incredibly happy when you manage to get good 6L.