Fixing the fundamental issue with Evasion

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Mark_GGG wrote:

I'd like to point out this isn't true. Evasion was made not fully random several patches ago to prevent exactly this. If you have more than 50% chance to evade against a particular monster (and it's the only monster you're fighting) you will never fail to evade two consecutive hits from that monster. Your evasion failures are spread out evenly.

Just to verify completely: Is this based on Pseudo-Random Distribution, the same system that Warcraft 3 used for its % based abilities?
(See http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7993)

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Mark_GGG wrote:

The cases where you start taking more hits are when you're attacked by lots of things at once, and thus fail to evade more often in a given time frame - and being surrounded is something evasion is intentionally bad at.

Are you trying to say that the only time when someone is taking several hits at once (from several monsters) is when they are surrounded?
Because that couldnt be further from the truth.

Every time you move to the entrance of a door, you are basically asking to be shot at by a bunch of ranged monsters, and thats definitely NOT a "being surrounded" scenario.

But there is no real other option other than moving to that entrance for several reasons.
First off, there is the issue of not being able to properly shoot through door entrances.

Then there is the issue of desynch that makes it even harder to shoot through door entrances.
Sometimes you wait for enemies to come through, but the enemies that come through didnt actually come through the door, its just a desynch and they are actually still in the room and you are shooting at a desynch ghost.

Finally there is the issue of vision, sometimes you just cant see what is ahead in the next room, whether it is overlapping graphics, or the inherent problem of only being able to see half as far downwards than you can look upwards.

Point is, if you are playing the game a lot, you will encounter a lot of scenarios where you suddenly start taking a lot more hits than usual even if you arent surrounded at all.
While armor users at this point will take more damage, they will still have the opportunity to pop defensive cooldowns.
With evasion based characters thats not always the case if you get unlucky.
Not always the same result is not good enough when there is a damage reduction mechanic that ALWAYS produces the same result and thus is more reliable.


I would also like to point out that 15% damage reduction through 3 endurance charges is not always the same, it is directly influenced by the amount of damage reduction you already have since it just stacks additively on top of your normal damage reduction.

If you go from 0% damage reduction up to 15% damage reduction with endurance charges, thats exactly 15% less damage you take.
However, if you are already at 75% damage reduction and from there go up to 90% damage reduction with endurance charges, thats 60% less damage you take NOT 15%.

If you were to be hit by 1000 damage and your current damage reduction is 75%, you take 250 damage.
Going up to 90%, you would now only take 100 damage.
250 x 0.4 = 100
Basically the 3 endurance charges grant another 60% damage reduction.
Last time i checked 60% arent equal to the initial 15% you get on an evasion based character.

You stated endurance charges arent tied to armor, but looking at the calculations i just made, that statement is just wrong.
It is DIRECTLY tied to the amount of armor you have.

3 Endurance charges on an armor class will always be better than 3 endurance charges on an evasion class, except if your base armor already grants you close to 90% damage reduction, which should never be the case.

Well without Acrobatics you still have the option to use granite-flasks which just gives you a big armor-increase (well 10.000 Armor is more than most chars have if they go for armor).

But it is a bit weird to go full evasion if you still need armor to survive, even if provide by a flask.

edit2; duh, can't granite under acrobatics. Um, well, that throws the whole thing off now. See next page for fixed version, but I don't like this comparison anymore

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Strill wrote:

Do you really believe that? The effective HP increase due to Endurance Charges is orders of magnitude higher for an armor-using character than any other character, even if they take penalties due to the cap.

Ah, cha-ching, here's what I was looking for. I kept coming back to this notion that I wouldn't even bother with endurance unless I was wearing armour, but I couldn't remember why at the moment.

* If you pretend the reduction from endurance came from a separate multiplicative source of DR: in the context of a high-armour character you get considerably more than 5% reduction per charge.

It's that additive behavior, puts all the worst diminishing returns on armour well past the 90% DR cap. Together armour and endurance strengthen each other.

Now we're way off in semantics-land. The point to compare is: how much reduction can an armour character get without ruining his offensive ability? 90% + block (you probably won't be adding in a defensive curse). How much reduction can a pure-evasion character get without ruining offensive ability? I'd say that "ruining offensive ability" notion pretty much excludes the use of endurance on armour-less characters, but you could replace endurance with, say, enfeeble or temp chains. Either could be treated as its own, separate, multiplicative source of reduction.

Now you get:
max reduction, armour-stacking staff templar: 90%, and it's not impossibly difficult to achieve (with high endurance and proper flasks, 5k armour or so could be enough for every physi hit in the game if you have the right passives)
In my case, add in a staff and 33% block, now I'm at 93% reduction and avoidance.

max total avoidance, agi class? (case: 600 mob accuracy, 25.5k evasion shieldless with no flask, running grace lvl 17 with 168% incr. evasion rating passives. These stats are possible, not likely)
k1: 70% evasion under a reflexes flask
k2: 40% DR against a large boss under a granite flask of iron skin
k3: 24% avoidance from acrobatics
k4: 38% less overall damage taken, due to enfeeble or temp chains (note: enfeeble also improves the granite flask's DR, so this figure is probably close enough for both curses)
1-Π(1-k%), overall reduction/avoidance winds up at 91.5%.

But now you have to do the same thing for a more realistic evasion number. 19k evasion rating, flasked and shieldless, should actually be reachable - believe it or not that's about 50% of the item budget. At 600 accuracy on monsters that's 59% evade, and overall reduction/avoidance becomes 88.5%. This is a big difference, 11.5% damage taken for the defensively built ranger vs 7% damage taken for the staff-tank.

Reasonable? Actually, maybe. Tank classes get 70% more effective health per HP, with less challenge reaching that high reduction? Maybe fair enough. Not entirely sure. Rangers have access to tons of HP nodes; shadows have access to tons of ES nodes; duelists, armour and regen.

I think maybe I've taken this a bit too far, but just had a few things occur to me recently, slightly different view than before. It's also dependent on the playerbase in general utilizing armour+endurance correctly, which eh, generally they don't right now.

@Zakaluka

It seems in your calculations you are using acrobatics and granite flask together, that's not right. Also it's a bit weird you factor in block for the armor character but not for evasion one. While evasion characters wont be using staff like you shield and dual wielding is still there as an option. Also, how you come up with 38% for enfeeble or temp chains? Well temp chains might be counted as 33% in a game situation might vary greatly because slower attack speed might be difference between 1 or 2 hits before monsters dies. Enfeeble with both damage and accuracy reduction is harder to calculate but it also has a steep int requirement if you want to level it, even 41(I think) at level 1 requires some investment.

Don't get me wrong, I like the comparison but for me it just seems you're comparing apples and oranges. I wanted to come up with some calculations like that as well, but it's damn hard to apply them to a game situation. Just too mane variables and different builds.

Evasion "tank" can reach ridiculous amounts of reduction, mine has roughly 45% chance to evade, 71% chance to block, acrobatics and level 10 quality enfeeble. That's roughly 6,4% hit's reaching me before factoring in enfeeble.

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vankeris wrote:

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Evasion "tank" can reach ridiculous amounts of reduction, mine has roughly 45% chance to evade, 71% chance to block, acrobatics and level 10 quality enfeeble. That's roughly 6,4% hit's reaching me before factoring in enfeeble.

Is that an evasion tank or a block tank? :)

I have often done a little theorycrafting that maxes both, and the numbers can be impressive.

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Charan wrote:

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vankeris wrote:

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Evasion "tank" can reach ridiculous amounts of reduction, mine has roughly 45% chance to evade, 71% chance to block, acrobatics and level 10 quality enfeeble. That's roughly 6,4% hit's reaching me before factoring in enfeeble.

Is that an evasion tank or a block tank? :)

I have often done a little theorycrafting that maxes both, and the numbers can be impressive.

I would bet your life and dps is not ;)

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Charan wrote:

Is that an evasion tank or a block tank? :)

I have often done a little theorycrafting that maxes both, and the numbers can be impressive.

Good point :) Although with how chance to hit is calculated it's easier to get your block chance up than evasion much higher. So to me it just seemed like a natural path to take.

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Torin wrote:

I would bet your life and dps is not ;)

Well my life is between 2.5k-3k depending on which gear I feel like wearing. DPS is lacking though but I built it with survivability as a priority. Some middle ground could possibly be reached. So far mostly I just use viper strike and leave monsters to die after 2 hits.

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vankeris wrote:

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Charan wrote:

Is that an evasion tank or a block tank? :)

I have often done a little theorycrafting that maxes both, and the numbers can be impressive.

Good point :) Although with how chance to hit is calculated it's easier to get your block chance up than evasion much higher. So to me it just seemed like a natural path to take.

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Torin wrote:

I would bet your life and dps is not ;)

Well my life is between 2.5k-3k depending on which gear I feel like wearing. DPS is lacking though but I built it with survivability as a priority. Some middle ground could possibly be reached. So far mostly I just use viper strike and leave monsters to die after 2 hits.

Yes, but you don't have 71% block. That takes way more passive points spent on block passives as well as on stat highways, points that are then not going into life, mana or dps.

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Torin wrote:

Yes, but you don't have 71% block. That takes way more passive points spent on block passives as well as on stat highways, points that are then not going into life, mana or dps.

What do you mean? I can't have these stats? 19% increased block chance from passives, 4% from tempest shield, 48% from Crest of Perandus, unique shield. In 5 levels it will be 31% increase from passives and I can move on to a nice vaal buckler with 38% base block. I can't figure out how to post a screenshot here, but if you tell me how I can show it :)