Fixing the fundamental issue with Evasion

Maybe the "fix" for evasion is just to spread +life +life regen nodes more generously throughout the entire tree? This would take a little away from the Mara's though...

Maybe change the tree again :) and make the center a more generic +stats +life +mana area? that wouldn't work though because most people would prob incorporate the center into every build...hrm I hope they fix it, I grabbed IR with my duelist after the respec and have had a grand time of it. But I am only in the mid 30's end of act 1 cruel

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

"

gh0un wrote:

Even if you had 90% evasion (which is a ridiculous number), if you face a bad luck streak, you are gonna take a few hits in a row and probably die.

I'd like to point out this isn't true. Evasion was made not fully random several patches ago to prevent exactly this. If you have more than 50% chance to evade against a particular monster (and it's the only monster you're fighting) you will never fail to evade two consecutive hits from that monster. Your evasion failures are spread out evenly.
The cases where you start taking more hits are when you're attacked by lots of things at once, and thus fail to evade more often in a given time frame - and being surrounded is something evasion is intentionally bad at.

What if you factored in enemies within a certain proximity directly into the evasion formula somehow?

I see no reason why a similar level or lower level single white mob should not be able to be evaded with 99-100% certainty.

Cap evasion vs blue and elite monsters at 98% for similar level or lower when 1 v 1

Evasion of bosses at 85% maybe.

Then for each additional monster surrounding a character they lose a % of their evasion rating effectiveness.

Maybe something like this assuming just enough evasion rating to max out evasion rating against equal level monsters:
1 v 1
(Evasion % formulae) = 100% evasion vs white = 98% vs magic = 95% vs rare = 85% vs boss

1 v X
evasion = evasion / 1 + .2 per monster after the first

so at 1 monster you get full effect of evasion.
at 2 white monsters your 100% dodge chance divided by 1.2 is only 83.3%
at 3 monsters it would be 100% / 1.4 = 71.4%
at 4 = 100 / 1.6 = 62.5%
at 5 = 55.5%
at 6 = 50%

I believe this type of mechanic would work (and feel) very good. An evasive character is never going to tank an army of mobs but they can hit and run a pack picking things off one at a time using superior movement speed and evasion which is IMHO how these types of characters should be played.

I don't think this would be overpowered. My marauder as an example can tank a white monster indefinitely. High armor and high hp and high hp regen means I regen faster than i take damage... but as i get surrounded I have to do work to stay alive (Attack, leech life, drink potions, whatever)

There could also be packs of monsters with ability mods like "Always hits" or "Never misses" for an evasion player to watch out for.

=================

Another possibility that may help is to eliminate the possibility for critical hits after a certain percentage of dodge chance.
imho should look something like

Chance to hit:
Hit Chance = Accuracy + Crit chance - Dodge chance

On Successful Hit:
Crit Chance = Crit chance - Dodge chance

So having high crit helps you land successful hits against a high dodge rate character but also the evasive character can actually take a couple of hits without getting 1 shot by a lucky punch.

It should be like this because critical hits on a character with lower HP and little or no armor to mitigate the damage could easily be a 1 hit KO

==
These are my thoughts anyways. Maybe it helps maybe not. I use armor because evasion does not feel like I can play without dying no matter how skilled I play. Changes like I mentioned above would allow an active and attentive player to kite and kill mobs through active skilled game play. This would be fun and I would definitely go back and try evasion based characters again if evasion gets re-worked.

for the record, I didn't initially understand all the aspects of the evasion rebalance. I came out initially dissatisfied with it, but now, I'm not sure.

If you have high %evasion, you will rarely ever take crits. This actually gives evasion a real damage reduction aspect, which it never had before. Downside to that, of course, is that accuracy takes a hit as an offensive stat. And accuracy was already a pretty inefficient dps stat for most players. Not sure if this was accounted for, but it might have been.... with all the monster values being tweaked.

Making sure you don't go on a drought of failed evasion rolls fixes another aspect of it.

I might actually be satisfied with evasion as a system right now, but now - if only the diminishing returns weren't so punishing on evasion rating in the end-game. This is the only problem with evasion right now, I think. The system as it is should be fine after that gets tuned.

Armour players, with endurance and flasks, can cap their DR against surprisingly large hits. An evasion player should have a very hard time flasking to 60% evade in the higher levels. Now that same evasion player can still flask to ~40% DR against level 64 map brutus (actual DR with 20k AR; remember that your shown DR isn't accurate!), but he's still only sitting at 76% total reduction under his flask, 82% with dodge. The armour player has 90% and it's all mitigation (predictable damage intake), plus on TOP of that whatever block he's got.

We have blind, but blind isn't as predictable as endurance. Still not 100% sure what I think about all that. Theoretically you'd wind up at 95% total reduction under blind in that same scenario, but everyone has access to blind, not just agi classes. And, as others have pointed out, it's not always easy to apply blind.

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

You also have endurance charges, just as much as an armour player does

Yes, absolutely true. I would say though that a ranger only has reasonable access to 3, unless heavily cross-skilling into duelist. I guess it's pretty typical for melee rangers to do that, though.

And also that you won't see many rangers, duelists, and shadows taking enduring cry (I could imagine a duelist here or there...) just because it doesn't function too well in the context of a high-DPS character.

Warlord's is only useful to keep endurance stacked while clearing trash quickly. Not so much for boss fights. You could keep enduring on your weapon swap, with your main boss nuke setup, something I've thought about.

Just, different contexts. 3, or 4 charges for DPS, 5-7 for a tank. Charges refresh with high kill speed for a DPS, refresh constantly for a tank. I don't agree that 6 endurance charges are accessible to a ranger during a bossfight. That's what I had on my templar.

"

Mark_GGG wrote:

You also have endurance charges, just as much as an armour player does (if not more, given you're less likely to loose some bonus to the cap). Endurance charges are not tied to armour in any way (although both are admittedly associated with strength, making them slightly easier to combine with armour), and provide the same bonus to any character (all the charges are designed that way).

Do you really believe that? The effective HP increase due to Endurance Charges is orders of magnitude higher for an armor-using character than any other character, even if they take penalties due to the cap.

I haven't been following the inner workings of the evasion mechanic, but I'm playing a bow Ranger with Acrobatics in Merciless and would just like to say that it works for me.

If you grab a lot of life nodes/items, that will greatly mitigate the risk of insta-death. Yes, you have to be super duper careful when using Evasion but personally that fits my play style as I like to be nimble. I wouldn't be surprised if it's absolutely useless for melee builds, but haven't tried that myself.

"

Bezier wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if it's absolutely useless for melee builds, but haven't tried that myself.

I have tried it and it is not useless. I also use (4) endurance charges for damage reduction which is working as well.

Edit: Maybe evasion deserves some tweaks but I wouldn't call them 'fix'. The last critical hit double roll didn't do much as far as I can tell just by observing the game while playing. The worst enemies for me aren't and I think never were high crit chance rares. Chaos damage is, especially poison arrow archers. I think with armor I wouldn't be any better against them.