pls add gold to buy items

I haven't missed gold one minute of my fairly lengthy time investment in this game.

Scrolls are a currency that don't have the sink implementations yet, I get that.

I also get, and absolutely love, that the crafting material 'currency' has worked perfectly from the get go.
The game still has so much that will be added and balanced or so on, but the currency works so well, you will NEVER run into a situation where someone refuses to take the game currency for an item they've offered to trade.

I don't have to worry about finding some sword that really floats someone's boat so I can get what I want, because I know that if I offer a few rare orbs, they'll take them. The differentiation between the orbs makes it even more interesting, because maybe the person you're trading with doesn't want any Chaos orbs, but they're in need of Exalted or something else.

Everyone wants these items, and no one has too many because everyone USES them. In an early beta of an unreleased game that still has plenty of work left on it, there is a fully functional economy and currency right now.

I don't understand whats not to like about it.

Like i said in a other thread, i like the no gold idea.
But when the orbs should replace gold total, there must be an option to trade orbs against each other at a vendor.
So people have a basic trust in it, and an idea how much they are worth.

Perhaps it works without it but i never saw this in any game. Even d2 rune system only worked because you could create higher runes with lower ones.

Plus: not used orbs get useful just by trading.
E.g. the orb that adds a mod to a magic. I never saw someone who accept it for trade and i never used one of my.

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Sparhawk wrote:

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TheSkeletor wrote:

2) its new, you only dont like it because its new

Which seems to be exactly what is happening with people here.

You try to make opinions form other people bad, by just guessing there reasons. This is a bad and unproductive way to discuss. Try to argue against the argument not the person or feelings you see in the poster.

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TheSkeletor wrote:

But when the orbs should replace gold total, there must be an option to trade orbs against each other at a vendor.
So people have a basic trust in it, and an idea how much they are worth.

I may have interpreted this wrong, and if so let me know..

Why does there need to be a value system based on a preset scale set by GGG? To me this is still based on gold, and we need to remove the gold idea from our thought process. You only need to set specified values for a few reasons: Who has the most, setting a rate that all will adhere to, and to prevent getting ripped off.

Keeping with the theme of the currency (which GGG seems to really want to do), then the inhabitants (the player community) will collectively decide at each point in time what each item is worth. This week, Alchemy orbs are worth 3 Chaos Orbs. Next month Exalted are worth 2 Alchemy. I really don't see why it would matter to have it constantly changing.

Need is really when value is applied, and on a personal basis. To you Regals might be worth an Alchemy, while to another a Regal is worth a gem upgrade. Who is more right? Why must a higher power (GGG) dictate that for the game?

Who has the most doesn't really apply here, since there is no benifit to hoarding mass amounts of them. The only reason would be to trade at will for what you want when you want it. As far as the getting ripped off part, it can't really be avoided. Even if someone sets a base value, no one has to stick to that. Someone will always undercut another player, or state a higher value that another will pay without knowing.

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TheSkeletor wrote:

Plus: not used orbs get useful just by trading.
E.g. the orb that adds a mod to a magic. I never saw someone who accept it for trade and i never used one of my.

I think the reason there is most items already have the minimum mods, so the Augmentation orb can't be used. I also have them sitting around, and the only time I use them is for a vendor item with only the base values, or when actually purchasing an item from a vendor. Perhaps the item needs to be adjusted because it appears to be on the track of portal/wisdom scrolls as you have said.

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TheSkeletor wrote:

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Sparhawk wrote:

"

TheSkeletor wrote:

2) its new, you only dont like it because its new

Which seems to be exactly what is happening with people here.

You try to make opinions form other people bad, by just guessing there reasons. This is a bad and unproductive way to discuss. Try to argue against the argument not the person or feelings you see in the poster.

My post was formed based on their direct words, and my opinion was that it does not fit in to the design created for the game. I made no guesses as to their motives, they clearly stated their side of the discussion. Just because I chose to disagree with their thoughts, and say why I don't think they work, does not mean I am being malicious. Perhaps I could have left out the logic failure part, but I guess I felt it correctly applied to the situation.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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Fluffy wrote:

I have not suggested the game world generates any currency. I have suggested an NPC will trade the consumable currency items for gold or fairy dust or IOUs or whatever you want to call it. Apart from a starting 'float' that trader does not generate currency or consumable currency items. The NPC must have no or very small mark up. His fairy dust or whatever will become the currency players use because it is easy to manage and of known and equal value to all players.

Either it runs out quickly or it generates more. Your suggestion requires this NPC to generate fairy dust to be of any actual use so that it doesn't run out. So why are you saying it doesn't?

I in a previous post in this thread I stated "trade currency items at supply/demand determined rates"

So he doesn't run out because the price he pays for (and sells) particular items drops as his stock of those items increases. He needs a float of fairy dust which represents the value of the stock he will hold. The size of his stock and so float will need to grow with the number of players in the world (he effectively becomes a bigger trader for a bigger world).

It works in Guild Wars and their platinum currency works. Crafting materials are the equivalent of consumable currency items. The material traders do not create platinum or crafting materials they just trade. They have target stock levels for each type of material and buy and sell prices are automatically adjusted to keep stock levels close to targets. The only thing wrong with Guild Wars is players are not allowed to hold enough platinum forcing them to bypass the currency and the traders have rip off buy/sell ratios encouraging people to bypass the currency. For most players the convenience of holding and trading with platinum worth the rip off 2:1 ratio.

@Sparhawk

1) you did understand it right and your right that a ggg orb for orb system would take the chance away that player just come up with a flexible price table.
(not 100% , think of zed rune in d2, most unique . kind impossible to craft but not the most expansive in pvp trade)

But here the reasons why this is better:

1) Stable price is newb friendly.
This is kind of obvious, people understand the stable trade-rate and newbs can start trading very soon by just looking up some item prices.

2) I can change whenever i want!
This is a big point. A currency, that can not traded in different values at any time, is no real currency.
People dont trust this currency and the trade price will not become stable in any form. Not even in a week not even in a hour. This is the reason while for every currency people make sure you can change it all the time.
Imagine it is not possible for you to trade 2 1$ int 1 2$ whenever you want.


Result of no orb to orb:

I may be wrong but i think when there is no orb to orb rate this will lead into total chaos of trading.

Everyone have his own not fixed price-table. Because all want to trade they will search for possibility to compare the own price-table with the traders price-table and find a point where both agree.
Every day they adjust there own price-table by results of last trades, based on different forums and friends price-table.

This is complicated and people who just want to play will only trade if they really must and allays have the feeling after the trade that they made a bad deal.
Only hardcore traders like this system because they can make allot of profit knowing many people and there price-tables.

One example where it actual worked:
I played a game called ogame. It had 3 resource and people traded them with own price tables. But 3 are easy and the system was 3 : 2 : 1. The price change normally after 1 year to 2:1:1
Sometimes you had extra deals like 3: 1.2 : 1.1 if your a good customer of the trader. But there are only 3 currency in this game and only the top 5% of all players traded at all.
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i think this wall of text was enough for now. i answer the rest later

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TheSkeletor wrote:

So people have a basic trust in it, and an idea how much they are worth.

I actually like the idea that it can change, and you have to learn and keep up with values, or that values can change depending on what people need at that time.

And once the game goes live and gets a sufficient population, and droprates are fully mapped out, I think the values with stabilize, and there will be a "Rule of Thumb Currency Exchange Values" sticky in the forums to give people a good idea of relative worth.

Right now the beta is both new and small, so supply and demand fluctuate widely and there is a lot of misunderstanding of both item utility and item rarity.

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TheSkeletor wrote:

@Sparhawk

(removed to save space)

I see what you mean, but I don't think that could work. The problem is the overhead of the system. You would need a kind of police force to monitor and adjust the system and monitor trade. I think that is really unfeasible with a high populaton game.

Think about the money exchange market we have. Every second of every market day, the exchange amount of USD to EUR fluxuates. That doesn't mean that either currency is useless, it just means due to world events the value has changed. The situation of a constantly changing exchange rate is really the only way to handle an economy based on multiple currency items (orbs/scrolls) that are not all ratios of similar type (ie gold, silver, copper). A single person does not control the exchange rate, the traders (or in our case players) determine the value.

Most of the time, the simplest form to deal with getting scammed it to just ask in chat. You then will almost instantly get a general price on any item. The seller could then try to argue their case, but it usually takes care of the scam and the two parties then come to an agreement on a more "correct" price, or the trade falls through saving the new player from making a mistake.

I bet if GGG tried to set up a trade-in vendor for currency items, that people would complain about it. The value to each person is different and they don't like someone else controlling their trades.

I agree with you that the "rich" tend to control the prices in most game markets based on gold. In a market like this where wealth doesn't really exist, it is less likely it will fall into this scenario. How do we determine that someone is "rich" now? They have 50 Alchemy and Exalted orbs? Does that matter really when you only need 1-3 to achieve the same results?

I think the base issue here is either people don't understand the system, are out of the currency item they need to purchase something from a vendor, or don't like the alien nature of it.

One time I was out of transformation orbs to buy a belt from a vendor, and when I saw I was out of them I did say to myself: "bleh, if there was just gold I could have purchased it". Since I had higher valued orbs, I was "technically" wealthy enough to buy the item. The next second I said to myself ok, let's play the game as it was intended and see if I can buy one from another player. I asked in chat and was able to make a trade using other currency items I had in my stash to get the transformation orb. The trade was based on the worth of the item from the vendor to me at that point in time, and what the ratio I though transformations were worth to the currency I had on me. I performed the exact actions I believe GGG had in mind when they came up with the system.

My problem though with some of the naysayers of the currency system, is that they aren't willing to make that switch to get what they want. They want the simple out of having gold so they don't have to put forth any other effort. They want it because every other game in this genre did it this way (their words).

you understand me total wrong.

I dont want to trade items at vendors.
I just want 1 vedor that trade ORBS for ORBS
The prices for items for orbs is playerbaced.

To your example $ to euro. The price change every day. But i can change at every bank in the world anytime.
If we dont have a orb vs orb vendor this is not the case.

I don't see how a demand-driven vendor is any different from trading with other players. Yes, you might get "ripped off" in a trade, but a few rich players could just as easily force the vendor to change his rates by influencing the economy. You can see this in many games that have auction and consignment houses: players control the market by stockpiling goods and finding the right time to make big profits. Hell, it's the same thing in every real economy. The people with the supply can create the demand.

I think a lot of people are simply worried that they won't get the maximum benefit from each trade. Those people would look for a set-in-stone authority to tell them what everything is worth, so they can trade x for y with no worries at all. That's the point of the system. You're allowed to decide what everything is worth to you, not to some dev who makes lists. Just like in the real world, you're free to decide what your property and time are worth. There is no governmental office that says your hand-made baskets are worth $1 each, and anyone offering less is trying to rip you off. What you find in the game is yours to trade as you wish. There's an underlying amount of freedom that people don't want, for some reason.