Looting -- The official thread for discussing the loot system. Updated 18th March, 2013.
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Dinin wrote:
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Jackel6672 wrote:
3. The core of that paragraph was that us, the players, are responsible for maintaining lists if we so choose. Until they decide to implement there own system that basically segregates their own customers into a list of good and bad, its up to us. Since it has not already been done, chances are a lot of people feel a friends list works well enough.
A list in the game is also against the theme of the game itself. Exile's etc.
Here is the thing, this game is going to be a FTP game, it is going to attract the worst kind of people imaginable. People that their only purpose is to ruin other peoples playing experience, even if they get banned.
As I posted before from games with community made whitelists
Spoiler
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Dinin wrote:
This reminds me of Warcraft 3 and the Dota TDA league. Because having people leaving/being assholes in Dota was a huge enjoyment killer, players were forced to create a group of their own just to be able to enjoy the game. Players had to have so many ranked games played in Warcraft 3 to get let into the clan and follow certain rules. A whitelist and bots were made to check every game before it started to kick people not in the TDA league. This pretty much left all the public games into only having shitty people and you could rarely get a game where someone didn't leave or purposely ruin the game if you weren't in the league. Fast-forward to now where LoL has recognized the problem of its predecessor and implemented into the game leaver detection and a tribunal system to punish toxic players.
Players were forced to spend hours to develop whitelists and bots just to make a tolerable community for a game. Then if you wanted to host a game you had to download multiple programs and set them up just to play a game. Even then you were still at the whim of the creators of the bots and whitelists just to be able to actually enjoy a game.
This was in like 2006, and the game was completely free and there was 0 competition for MOBA type games at the time. Its now 2013 and there are a lot of other competing ARPG games. Not to mention if some community member managed some work around to the FFA loot problem in public games (a whitelist of some sort) I would much rather donate money to them then the developers of the game.
If someone comes up with a large and good community whitelist, I won't be giving my money to the devs, I would give it to the maker/maintainer of said whitelist for making public games playable for me.
For those who keep saying "loot tension" is the main reason why FFA has to stay. Everyone already gets around loot tension. Every single player that plays solo has no loot tensions. Every player that plays with friends has no loot tensions. Everyone that says "Just make friends and play with them, thats what I do" is avoiding the loot tension completely. The only people that loot tension is forced upon is new players that are not familiar with the game. The same people that the game wants to retain to actually succeed. The only real thing loot tension does is scare away new players, while older and experienced players just use ways to get around it.
What your saying is "Loot tension is a hurdle you have to jump, which is easier as you make new friends" right? Basically, as you make new friends in the game the game becomes easier?
Your white list is your friends list. If you don't use it, you will play solo since you cannot understand that not everyone has the same agenda as you. New players will meet other new players and make friends. Groups of friends will join pub games and make more friends. This is how these games work. If they don't make friends, they will not add them to their friends list, thus making it harder for said bad people to join games made by people with friends. Slowing their overall progress and making the game more challenging to them.
You can't change a large aspect of a game for a few people per capita that are just out to make your day full of crap.
Its a social aspect of the game, and not a programming one.
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right!" Henry Ford
What your saying is "Loot tension is a hurdle you have to jump, which is easier as you make new friends" right? Basically, as you make new friends in the game the game becomes easier?
Your white list is your friends list. If you don't use it, you will play solo since you cannot understand that not everyone has the same agenda as you. New players will meet other new players and make friends. Groups of friends will join pub games and make more friends. This is how these games work. If they don't make friends, they will not add them to their friends list, thus making it harder for said bad people to join games made by people with friends. Slowing their overall progress and making the game more challenging to them.
You can't change a large aspect of a game for a few people per capita that are just out to make your day full of crap.
Its a social aspect of the game, and not a programming one.
PoE is F2P = Its a jackass magnet.
When open beta hits jackasses will flood the game as they get some weird sense of satisfaction for ruining other peoples good experiences.
And whitelists will always exist as long as jackasses exists.
If theres a way to improve ones chances to avoid jackasses, people will use that.
Also i agree on this:
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Thalandor wrote:
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Dinin wrote:
The only real thing loot tension does is scare away new players, while older and experienced players just use ways to get around it.
This is it, nailed it.
As for solutions:
Pros/Cons of each loot type as far as i gathered:
Alt+Left Click or whatever would be used to Quick-Unlock loot.
Spoiler
Infinite VS Instanced VS timed
Infinite:
Pros:
Can see items that may be interesting, non-reciever has to ask reciever of the loot.
Cons:
Opens up for trolling.
Instanced:
Pros:
Cannot be trolled like infinite loot.
Cons:
Players can troll by saying (truthfully or lying) something they dont *need for their character* dropped and refusing to give it to a player that really needs it and saying "Theyll just not pick it up at all".
Though arguably this is more trolling to annoy people as its techically *The trollers loot*.
Timer:
Pros:
Allows for automated Loot unlocks, or destruction of item.
No communication needed, unless item is out of sight or overlooked.
Cons:
Depending on timer and if loot is destroyed or unlocked and if the item dropped out of sight or was overlooked, players may choose not to *tell other players about certain loot* and to grab it oneself or let it be destroyed.
Last edited by Planetsurvival#1516 on Jan 11, 2013, 1:59:58 PM
Your white list is your friends list. If you don't use it, you will play solo since you cannot understand that not everyone has the same agenda as you. New players will meet other new players and make friends. Groups of friends will join pub games and make more friends. This is how these games work. If they don't make friends, they will not add them to their friends list, thus making it harder for said bad people to join games made by people with friends. Slowing their overall progress and making the game more challenging to them.
What I am hearing you say is...
Public games = An unfun experience that you deal with by getting friends as fast as possible to enjoy private games with.
I disagree that this is ok. Public games should be a great experience by itself. It should be a fun alternative to playing the game with your close friends.
You appear to agree with the idea that you should only be able to enjoy the game with people that have the same agenda as you. What agenda are you talking about? Shouldn't we all have the same agenda? To collect loot and get powerful? I am willing to bet that slaying monsters is a common goal by the vast majority of the player base.
Your white list is your friends list. If you don't use it, you will play solo since you cannot understand that not everyone has the same agenda as you. New players will meet other new players and make friends. Groups of friends will join pub games and make more friends. This is how these games work. If they don't make friends, they will not add them to their friends list, thus making it harder for said bad people to join games made by people with friends. Slowing their overall progress and making the game more challenging to them.
What I am hearing you say is...
Public games = An unfun experience that you deal with by getting friends as fast as possible to enjoy private games with.
I disagree that this is ok. Public games should be a great experience by itself. It should be a fun alternative to playing the game with your close friends.
You appear to agree with the idea that you should only be able to enjoy the game with people that have the same agenda as you. What agenda are you talking about? Shouldn't we all have the same agenda? To collect loot and get powerful? I am willing to bet that slaying monsters is a common goal by the vast majority of the player base.
Well if a game rewards social exclusion, theres something fundamentally wrong with the design.
Just look at GW2, if one is in a party theres only rewards to gain.
No negative effect.
Trolling/jackassery is kept to a minimum.
Details on GW2:
Guildwars 2 is B2P.
Pay for the game, play forever.
It also has a microtransaction shop.
(sadly also RMAH like auction house that D3 has...)
Parties arent needed, because if one does enough damage to a foe its tagged and one get as much reward as a solo kill.
All loot is instanced, theres no hurdle to join groups as all enemies gives Experience AND loot in the same amount to all attackers.
Basically if you would have gotten 100 XP + loot, and 6 people attack.
All 6 would have gotten 100 XP each + Their own instanced loot just as much as if they have killed the enemy solo.
In essence: Grouping in GW2 = No negative effects and only positive effects.
Last edited by Planetsurvival#1516 on Jan 11, 2013, 2:33:15 PM
1. That is where you and a lot of other players differ. As another poster said, its torture to the herd of 15 year olds that will flood this game come OB.
Then an option to hide those items from sight via an instanced type system would be a nice addition for said players.
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Jackel6672 wrote:
3. The core of that paragraph was that us, the players, are responsible for maintaining lists if we so choose. Until they decide to implement there own system that basically segregates their own customers into a list of good and bad, its up to us. Since it has not already been done, chances are a lot of people feel a friends list works well enough.
This discussion isn't about making friends and never was. Though it keeps being brought up over and over and over.
I am of the opinion that no player should be put on a "bad" List for simply doing what the devs intended which is compete over the loot.
Of course, there's no harm in asking for changes - this is a beta after all - but there seems to be much frustration with GGG because some players feel they're being ignored, yet the reason we haven't seen changes has nothing to do with that: the devs are just happy with the game as-is.
Watching the replay, and... yep! He's over the line! Whether or not the devs are "just happy with the game as-is" is only for GGG to say -- and could change at any given moment. But what I CAN say, what I KNOW to be true, is that GGG is capable of using player feedback in their decision-making process. Wielding this knowledge, I am resolute in my intention to continue to provide my feedback. Perhaps they'll listen to me. Perhaps they're all secretly laughing at me. I don't know. But I'm-a gonna keep at it, stubborn fool that I am.
What I said was based on what has been quoted multiple times:
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lethal_papercut wrote:
I recently PM'd Chris asking him to speak on the subject, there is nothing personal in there so I think it is ok to post it publicly.
"We're pretty happy with how it works at the moment. There is great tension around item drops in multiplayer, but people are still able to grab ones that are allocated to them if they're paying attention."
"We're currently at record levels of party engagement in the game, and we're very pleased with how well that's doing considering the game is designed around being played solo.
So I didn't just make up that they are happy as-is. But yes, they have also stated (and shown) they are willing to compromise, so nothing is off the table.
Your white list is your friends list. If you don't use it, you will play solo since you cannot understand that not everyone has the same agenda as you. New players will meet other new players and make friends. Groups of friends will join pub games and make more friends. This is how these games work. If they don't make friends, they will not add them to their friends list, thus making it harder for said bad people to join games made by people with friends. Slowing their overall progress and making the game more challenging to them.
What I am hearing you say is...
Public games = An unfun experience that you deal with by getting friends as fast as possible to enjoy private games with.
I disagree that this is ok. Public games should be a great experience by itself. It should be a fun alternative to playing the game with your close friends.
You appear to agree with the idea that you should only be able to enjoy the game with people that have the same agenda as you. What agenda are you talking about? Shouldn't we all have the same agenda? To collect loot and get powerful? I am willing to bet that slaying monsters is a common goal by the vast majority of the player base.
I never said it was unfun. I said people with the intent to make friends in pubs, make friends in pubs. It really is that simple.
Agenda wise, not everyone is joining pubs to make friends. Some act like ass hats and should get kicked. Some act like ass hats and don't get kicked. Again, this is a player aspect and not a game aspect.
I swear you guys join public games expecting it to be terrible. You go in dreading that guy is going to steal your 3 socket armor that dropped off screen. Then when it happens, which it will happen since its the premise of the game, you go "AH HAH, I knew public games are crap!" and go play solo.
That's exactly how to not have fun playing this game. Playing games is sometimes about leaving your comfort zone and enjoying doing something different. This game is, and will be different then most games due to the timer and skill system.
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right!" Henry Ford
1. That is where you and a lot of other players differ. As another poster said, its torture to the herd of 15 year olds that will flood this game come OB.
Then an option to hide those items from sight via an instanced type system would be a nice addition for said players.
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Jackel6672 wrote:
3. The core of that paragraph was that us, the players, are responsible for maintaining lists if we so choose. Until they decide to implement there own system that basically segregates their own customers into a list of good and bad, its up to us. Since it has not already been done, chances are a lot of people feel a friends list works well enough.
This discussion isn't about making friends and never was. Though it keeps being brought up over and over and over.
I am of the opinion that no player should be put on a "bad" List for simply doing what the devs intended which is compete over the loot.
1. Or just have it timed FFA so if you don't pay attention you lose it.
2. A white list keeps being discussed, which you yourself said that you would support making one. That's why I said the friends list is as close to a white list as the devs will go, because as you said, people are playing the way it was meant to be played.
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right!" Henry Ford
I personally have no issue with people grabbing what drops for me off screen. Out of sight out of mind. What I do have an issue is with my teammates stopping mid combat to hover over an orb. This loot camping is detrimental to the game.
I understand the whitelist/blacklist argument but if PoE is successful to any degree the ability to track accounts while in a party will soon disappear.
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Dinin wrote:
The only real thing loot tension does is scare away new players, while older and experienced players just use ways to get around it.
This is the reason that I have posted in this thread so frequently.
