Game Mechanics are too convoluted with Insufficient Information for Players.

@Zrevnur
As far as I understand, overlapping area damage is a restrictive category in PoE. (could be abused unless instance crash/machine failure)
In another word, you can find sufficient modifiers from other categories to scale single target DPS, f.e. raw damage, frequency and/or duration, debuff.

"

AintCare wrote:

"

didira wrote:

When I first started I always read what others said about it and the first warning sign I got was this:
"Don't these new players know that all those increases to spell and melee don't do much at all?"

And the entire tree you're navigating around is literally nothing but 12% increase that to 30% increase this or 6% penetration that...
and it doesn't really help any of the builds the way that we think it does?

I know it's true, because I didn't believe it starting out when it doesn't really do anything.

If they had changed 'increase' to 'improve' on the tree I would be in a legitimate argument.

it does help, how much is the key here. Increase helps a bit, MORE helps ALOT, Pen helps depending on the case, it can be lil it can be tons. I like how complex this game is, and with in-game-time and experience you surely will figure this out.

Part of my OP argument was that "Increase helps a bit" isnt necessarily true. Like due to breakpoints. And for new players not understanding "the rules" its (based on seeing new player builds, questions asked in this forum etc) often completely false as they often fail to understand the nuances of wordings. Like "increased damage with wands" does nothing for spells" but "increased damage while wielding wand" works for spells.
And I still havent figured out whether that "10% increased AoE" does anything for the arrows raining down in Toxic Rain or not.

"

finisterre wrote:

@Zrevnur
As far as I understand, overlapping area damage is a restrictive category in PoE. (could be abused unless instance crash/machine failure)

No idea what you are trying to say. Some skills (like Toxic Rain) are design around overlapping area damage.

"

finisterre wrote:

In another word, you can find sufficient modifiers from other categories to scale single target DPS, f.e. raw damage, frequency and/or duration, debuff.

Yes but the question is usually not "can I" but rather "whats better", for example with Toxic Rain: +1 arrow or +1 skill. This game is a lot about min-maxing and not-knowing is a major obstacle to that.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"whats better", for example with Toxic Rain: +1 arrow or +1 skill.

You better set the premise when asking "whats better". (instead you are asking the premise)

Short answer is "try both". +1 arrow on the quiver or 2 with corruption is handy and +1 from skill tree if you see it worth spending points.

Longer answer is "pick short bow type(faster base attack), +gem/+bow gem on the bow, +% damage over time multiplier and chaos damage over time multiplier as possible and fill the rest on the way."
Summary: raw damage, frequency (and/or duration, curse)

I assume there is not much difference on mix-maxing at this level.
Ofc there can be critical choice where you see the difference.

About "restrictive category", I mean past adjustments. You don't have to learn the history of poe.
You just can sort out the piles of current multipliers into unique categories as your build demands. It's not complicated in each category. (it does look complicated.)

"

finisterre wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

"whats better", for example with Toxic Rain: +1 arrow or +1 skill.

You better set the premise when asking "whats better". (instead you are asking the premise)

Short answer is "try both". +1 arrow on the quiver or 2 with corruption is handy and +1 from skill tree if you see it worth spending points.

Longer answer is "pick short bow type(faster base attack), +gem/+bow gem on the bow, +% damage over time multiplier and chaos damage over time multiplier as possible and fill the rest on the way."
Summary: raw damage, frequency (and/or duration, curse)

I assume there is not much difference on mix-maxing at this level.
Ofc there can be critical choice where you see the difference.

About "restrictive category", I mean past adjustments. You don't have to learn the history of poe.
You just can sort out the piles of current multipliers into unique categories as your build demands. It's not complicated in each category. (it does look complicated.)

Not sure whether I understand you correctly - probably language issue. But practical experimentation has major drawbacks:
1) Its not stable against (stealth) changes.
2) It costs time. Potentially a lot. Or is not properly reliable if insufficient time is spent.
3) It doesnt necessary give "the rules". So the results cant be transferred onto another setup then. So when I want to prepare for new league launch it doesnt help me sufficiently if I can observe certain results in my testing setup which will inevitable differ from the one I want to test for.
4) Experimentation to figure out basic skill stats is not fun for many including me.
In contrast to that it would be much better to simply have basic skill related information in the game. Like what is the AoE of the arrows raining down in Toxic Rain. And in what AoE do they rain down. Etc.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

1) Its not stable against (stealth) changes.

You can follow the change logs or Q&A forum thread if you don't get a clue through actual game play. They are really communicative (far better and clearer than me).

"

2) It costs time. Potentially a lot. Or is not properly reliable if insufficient time is spent.

You better learn actively.

"

3) It doesnt necessary give "the rules". So the results cant be transferred onto another setup then. So when I want to prepare for new league launch it doesnt help me sufficiently if I can observe certain results in my testing setup which will inevitable differ from the one I want to test for.

You look like trying to observe each line of the rules and I have nothing to argue about that. I'm just saying that you can observe the whole picture of the rules (your actual game play) even if there are blanks in it.

"

4) Experimentation to figure out basic skill stats is not fun for many including me.
In contrast to that it would be much better to simply have basic skill related information in the game. Like what is the AoE of the arrows raining down in Toxic Rain. And in what AoE do they rain down. Etc.

As it's written in the description on the skill gem, there are 2 damage types, "hit damage" and "damage over time".

For "area", as you can clearly see (if you don't, I can't help you here), there are 2 components. The spreading of arrows and spores affecting area.
Increasing AoE enlarges both the spreading of arrows and the affecting area. Arrows land randomly inside of the spreading area (a circle area around your target).

On the other hand, there are 2 ways to change the size of AoE. One is from support gems and one from the rest.
The reason of this classification is that you have to leave the spot in the skill links for damage.

Ofc you can try w/e tools you like in game to find the sweet spot between spreading and overlapping. (maybe compare the time to kill a certain mob by only changing AoE)

"

finisterre wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

1) Its not stable against (stealth) changes.

You can follow the change logs or Q&A forum thread if you don't get a clue through actual game play. They are really communicative (far better and clearer than me).

"Stealth" change means changes that are not in the change logs etc. GGG is well known for making stealth changes. IIRC there was some statement by some top GGG person that they intentionally do not communicate some rules so that they can get away with stealth changes.

"

finisterre wrote:

"

2) It costs time. Potentially a lot. Or is not properly reliable if insufficient time is spent.

You better learn actively.

Dont know what you mean here.

"

finisterre wrote:

I'm just saying that you can observe the whole picture of the rules (your actual game play) even if there are blanks in it.

Yes but I cant offline min max with that. Planning requires rules.

"

finisterre wrote:

"

4) Experimentation to figure out basic skill stats is not fun for many including me.
In contrast to that it would be much better to simply have basic skill related information in the game. Like what is the AoE of the arrows raining down in Toxic Rain. And in what AoE do they rain down. Etc.

As it's written in the description on the skill gem, there are 2 damage types, "hit damage" and "damage over time".

For "area", as you can clearly see (if you don't, I can't help you here), there are 2 components. The spreading of arrows and spores affecting area.
Increasing AoE enlarges both the spreading of arrows and the affecting area. Arrows land randomly inside of the spreading area (a circle area around your target).
<snip>

You didnt answer either of my questions. My impression is also that you dont understand how the skill works. It has 3 damaging components per arrow:
1) The arrow raining down does 'hit' damage.
2) The DoT area.
3) The explosion (also 'hit') after the expiration of the DoT area.
And the AoE behavior seems to be quite convoluted for Toxic Rain - see wiki: https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Toxic_Rain#Optimal_Single_Target_Setup
My guess is that in part this is a symptom of those bad AoE rounding rules.

"

Zrevnur wrote:

My guess is that in part this is a symptom of those bad AoE rounding rules.

Specifically for the symptom (of these bad rounding rules) regarding to AoE, did you actually try those testing method/result you quoted ?

If you need better approximations, you better compare the time to kill a certain mob.
You have to be able to feel the difference by yourself to solve your suspicions right ? It's basically same as having a dummy in game to see the DPS.
You put everything in a single setting after all or 2 if gem/gear swapping/respec'ing skill tree is not "convoluted" for you.

"

It has 3 damaging components per arrow:
1) The arrow raining down does 'hit' damage.
2) The DoT area.
3) The explosion (also 'hit') after the expiration of the DoT area.

hit damage:
you see enemies die or see the HP removed instantly.
damage over time:
you see enemies die or see the HP removed gradually.

These are 2 (not 3) different functions and built individually.

Then finally, in actual game play, you change the frequency of occurrence by attacking.

You are specifically focusing on increasing the frequency by overlapping (reduce/increase the spreading and increase the number of arrow)

"

GGG is well known for making stealth changes.

"

IIRC there was some statement by some top GGG person that they intentionally do not communicate some rules so that they can get away with stealth changes.

In the first place, you must quote the original source if your intention is not to make up convoluted story.

It's better to avoid including contradictions in an expression, so-called "double bind" which is often used to control others by putting self-contradictive context. f.e. "you are A (you are not B)"

"

finisterre wrote:

"

Zrevnur wrote:

My guess is that in part this is a symptom of those bad AoE rounding rules.

Specifically for the symptom (of these bad rounding rules) regarding to AoE, did you actually try those testing method/result you quoted ?

No, I didnt. Nor do I see your point.

"

finisterre wrote:

If you need better approximations, you better compare the time to kill a certain mob.

If you are trying to say its technically possible (with enough effort) to figure out the rules at some time - maybe, I am not denying that possibility.

"

finisterre wrote:

You have to be able to feel the difference by yourself to solve your suspicions right ?

Not sure what you mean here. I want to understand the rules so that I can plan with them.

"

finisterre wrote:

It's basically same as having a dummy in game to see the DPS.
You put everything in a single setting after all or 2 if gem/gear swapping/respec'ing skill tree is not "convoluted" for you.

What does that have to do with whether the rules are convoluted or not?

"

finisterre wrote:

"

It has 3 damaging components per arrow:
1) The arrow raining down does 'hit' damage.
2) The DoT area.
3) The explosion (also 'hit') after the expiration of the DoT area.

hit damage:
you see enemies die or see the HP removed instantly.
damage over time:
you see enemies die or see the HP removed gradually.

These are 2 (not 3) different functions and built individually.

No idea what you are trying to say.

"

finisterre wrote:

Then finally, in actual game play, you change the frequency of occurrence by attacking.

What does that have to do with this thread?

"

finisterre wrote:

You are specifically focusing on increasing the frequency by overlapping (reduce/increase the spreading and increase the number of arrow)

I cant interpret this comment either...

"

finisterre wrote:

"

GGG is well known for making stealth changes.

"

IIRC there was some statement by some top GGG person that they intentionally do not communicate some rules so that they can get away with stealth changes.

In the first place, you must quote the original source if your intention is not to make up convoluted story.

I am not aware of needing to do anything of the sort. This is not a work of science. And I dont particularly care whether you believe those statements or not.
Edit: And if you are interested in the topic of "stealth changes" you can try look here: https://www.poewiki.net/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=20&offset=0&profile=default&search=undocumented

"

finisterre wrote:

It's better to avoid including contradictions in an expression, so-called "double bind" which is often used to control others by putting self-contradictive context. f.e. "you are A (you are not B)"

No idea what you are referring to here.

"

finisterre wrote:

hit damage:
you see enemies die or see the HP removed instantly.
damage over time:
you see enemies die or see the HP removed gradually.

These are 2 (not 3) different functions and built individually.

Then finally, in actual game play, you change the frequency of occurrence by attacking.

You are specifically focusing on increasing the frequency by overlapping (reduce/increase the spreading and increase the number of arrow)

Afaik Toxic Rain has 3 damage sources: arrow (hit, weapon-based damage, tiny aoe), spore (dot, gem-based damage, notable aoe), and spore explosion (hit, weapon-based damage, same aoe as spore dot).

Arrows aoe is so small that in order to damage an enemy with initial arrow hit, you have to stick arrow directly into mob, so this part of damage is not worth factoring into total dps.

"

Echothesis wrote:

Arrows aoe is so small that in order to damage an enemy with initial arrow hit, you have to stick arrow directly into mob, so this part of damage is not worth factoring into total dps.

Its not just a DPS issue. You get on-hit effects such as Wither application or Mirage Archer triggering. Due to the potentially large delay (or worse: Enemy moves out of area) between initial arrows and final explosions those "tiny little" arrows raining down can be quite important. I have played a Mirage Archer Deadeye build in Ruthless and it would have been a lot worse without those little arrows triggering Mirage Archers.