Game Mechanics are too convoluted with Insufficient Information for Players.

Confusion about such wording (more/added/increased etc) is real, I agree. However, in my case, the more serious issue is not understanding (properly) how most of the league mechanics work. There is zero information about any of them in-game, just fluff text about why we should do blights or whatever.

But maybe all this is by design. Give breathing room for all these streamers and websites to operate, and give the game free advertising. It works for both sides. People need these sites to be able to play the darn game (at least once you get past the campaign), and the game needs the streamers to keep being their PR department.

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Aredid wrote:

It's just a game, what do you want? There are many casuals that only want to play the game. If you want insane amount of in depth information you can just read wiki. No reason to describe how integer rounding, server tick rate and other things affect various game mechanics in the game itself. New players are already scared from the complexity. Last thing they need is making every effect description 3x longer.

LoL. Ironically, it's the contrary. The game is SO not made for casuals exactly because of absurd lack of information, not even for complex matters, but for the most basic ones.

Good luck trying to figure out how much damage your minion does without PoB. Or if "nearby enemies" nearby is right in your face or 10 screens over. It wasn't complex, but they were always lazy about it, so now it's too much work to be done that they lazily just push to the wiki.

Sure, you don't need to explain every minutia, but figuring out % elemental damage as chaos applies to each step of the conversion of Eternity Shroud when there's fuck all in the wiki, it's just an exponential demonstration of how bad Gx3 runs things when it comes to clarification in their game.

It's literally the reason why some people can abuse exploits for leagues on end until it becomes common knowledge, then they fix the exploit. They barely know their own game, i'd wager they wouldn't do what OP is asking because honestly they can't.

@post: I totally agree, PoE is notorious for giving incomplete or completely misleading information in many different places. Having to use the wiki for information is a problem in and of itself.

HOWEVER

AoE is NOT a problem. You can visually see and experience any kind of AoE thing. There is not a single player (yes, OP included) that needs to know the nitty gritty of whether your AoE is 22 units, 24 units, or somewhere in between rounded down. Just add or subtract until it feels and looks right to you. That is the essence of playing the game, and not running a spreadsheet. The # has no meaning at all: either the AoE is right for what you play, or it isn't. Either the node you take adds a "Feelable" amount of AoE or it doesn't.

Damage is another story: when the game doesn't properly tell you how damage scales, or how defenses work, or even what your ACTUAL damage output is then we have a massive problem. There should absolutely be information on the tooltip dps of EVERY SKILL (minions included) that say: your unbuffed damage, your damage while you have flasks active, your damage when an enemy is cursed by an equipped curse, your damage after all enemy-centered damage multipliers are active, etc. In short, everything that is in PoB and has been in PoB for YEARS should be in the goddamn game itself.

When people play games like this, we WANT to see the numbers in the game. It's 90% of the reason why we continue to improve characters. And we want them to be correct. There's almost no reason to continue scaling if we can't immediately see how our damage numbers or defensive numbers change. AoE coverage is easy to see and feel while playing, but dps and defense is NOT.

Or perhaps, we need a training dummy if GGG can't figure out how to properly sort damage...they had 10 years and counting and its still awful. Have a bestiary-like arena where we can set up any kind of enemy we want to test our damage and build, with a running catalog of our dps and other info.

I would edit my last remark: the aoe regarding "nearby" issue is one that can and should get some clarity in-game. But all other aoe is easily seen via gameplay.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

There is not a single player (yes, OP included) that needs to know the nitty gritty of whether your AoE is 22 units, 24 units, or somewhere in between rounded down. Just add or subtract until it feels and looks right to you. That is the essence of playing the game, and not running a spreadsheet. The # has no meaning at all: either the AoE is right for what you play, or it isn't. Either the node you take adds a "Feelable" amount of AoE or it doesn't.

Doesnt work for me. Game is much too varied for that to work. And you could argue the same about other nodes like "5% increased life" - can you "feel that" (on a HC build)? Because that node competes with the "10% inc aoe" node right next to it.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

AoE coverage is easy to see and feel while playing,

I cant even "see" it (the breakpoints) with explicit testing with Screenshots - so no that is simply not true. And I am pretty sure even you with super feel vision will be hard pressed to see wether that 10% inc AoE increases the AoE of the first part (arrow raining down, I dont even know if its an AoE but my guess is it is) of Toxic Rain. And if you still disagree - plz try it out for yourself before posting.
And in addition to that part of the "seeing" argument may be based on the assumption that the gfx 1:1 represents what happens on server.

^the entire point was...if you CANT see or feel the difference then why take the node? Why do you need to know mathematically how it lies, if its so negligible that it does nothing for your gameplay then skip it!

As far as life, you bet your ass I can feel it! Any increased life is important. That was a silly comparison. The higher your life pool, es pool, mana pool, armour, resistances, etc. you KNOW you are benefiting implicitly.

AoE is NOT the same: either the AoE you have is enough for you or it isn't: either you SEE a difference when you increase it, or you don't and it's completely worthless. Take a rf build: some have ridiculous AoE, some are fine with smaller AoE. It's entirely on the player to visually and mechanically choose the AoE that is right for them and their playstyle, screw the breakpoints. If it isn't a noticeable loss or gain, then what does it matter if you happen to hit that extra 1 radius?

Analogy Time: Say you have a banana. Now say you have a slightly bigger banana, but you really can't tell which is the bigger one. Now say one of the bananas costs 10c more. Are you gonna pay the extra 10c for a banana that may or may not be the slightly bigger one if you can't tell the difference? No you aren't, or at least you shouldn't.

But now your comparison with a life node: Taking a 5% life node is like buying the banana, but getting a separate tiny banana as well. You know immediately that you are getting something that adds to what you already have. So of course you take it! Unless you are at the tail end of your build and you start shaving off unnecessary life nodes because you can.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

^the entire point was...if you CANT see or feel the difference then why take the node? Why do you need to know mathematically how it lies, if its so negligible that it does nothing for your gameplay then skip it!

This is in contradiction to your post where you say you need DPS numbers. According to your argument here you dont need DPS numbers - you can just "feel" whether it helps you or not.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

AoE is NOT the same: either the AoE you have is enough for you or it isn't: either you SEE a difference when you increase it, or you don't and it's completely worthless. Take a rf build: some have ridiculous AoE, some are fine with smaller AoE. It's entirely on the player to visually and mechanically choose the AoE that is right for them and their playstyle, screw the breakpoints. If it isn't a noticeable loss or gain, then what does it matter if you happen to hit that extra 1 radius?

Now look at Toxic Rain. It has weird AoE breakpoints that influence DPS. Meaning that 10% inc AoE will influence DPS. But you want DPS numbers. So contradiction with your prior statement? Edit: If that was not clear: For Toxic Rain you need AoE understanding to calculate DPS.

And just to be clear: I completely disagree with your "if you CANT see or feel the difference then why take the node?" opinion.

That's fine, you can disagree. But it isn't really an opinion...if something does nothing for you, there is literally no reason to have it. That is an essential aspect of min/maxing. You figure out what you need and what you don't need: what makes a difference and what doesn't, and that is where you trim the fat and keep only the meaningful stuff.

You are 100% wrong that AoE means dps, even for toxic rain. Sure, things overlap. That is true, and the more overlap, the more damage. BUT it is a factual statement that AoE alone quite literally has no effect on dps. If the AoE DOES have an effect on the dps, then it is only in a noticeable gameplay way (things are dying faster!). No breakpoint or spreadsheet is going to tell you what AoE is doing to your damage numbers, unless an enemy happens to be in the exact right position that WOULDN'T overlap without the AoE node.

Regarding DPS numbers, YES! You can tell the difference in-game and for some people that is enough. Having enough dps, not using PoB but using ONLY your in-game experience, is plenty. But the point I was trying to make which you stopped reading about halfway through is that players WANT to see those dps numbers climb higher and higher. They physically want to see it. That's just a player and game bias: whether it is actually necessary or not is meaningless to this argument. The difference between 10 million dps and 100 million dps in the grand scheme of PoE is....absolutely nothing.

If you REALLY cared, I mean REALLY really cared: the only thing that matters is how the build FEELS in the game. There is no contradiction, its just a difference of priority from a player standpoint. DPS/HP/DEFENSE are things that players WANT to be able to see numerically, AoE is not. When you start operating off of a spreadsheet, worrying about breakpoints and the nitty gritty details that are ultimately meaningless...you've sort of lost the ability to actually enjoy the game. Hence a post like this one

All that players really need is to take a step back....and focus on the game itself. Nearly all the information you need comes from PLAYING. Dying too much? The game, in most cases, shows you what is killing you. DoT is easy to see, and you can trial and error WHAT the DoT is. Getting one-shot? Your life pool or damage reduction isn't enough. You aren't killing mobs before they kill you? Your dps isn't enough. Your goal is to pop whole screens and its not happening? Your AoE isn't enough.

No numbers are even necessary. All that's needed is a general understanding of game mechanics and THAT is where the game lacks information.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

That's fine, you can disagree. But it isn't really an opinion...if something does nothing for you, there is literally no reason to have it.

Thats not the situation. The situation is that I cant tell by playing. Thats obviously different. And whether that matters to me or not is opinion.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

That is an essential aspect of min/maxing. You figure out what you need and what you don't need: what makes a difference and what doesn't, and that is where you trim the fat and keep only the meaningful stuff.

Min-maxing includes maximizing DPS and other things, its not a black-white.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

You are 100% wrong that AoE means dps, even for toxic rain. Sure, things overlap. That is true, and the more overlap, the more damage. BUT it is a factual statement that AoE alone quite literally has no effect on dps. If the AoE DOES have an effect on the dps, then it is only in a noticeable gameplay way (things are dying faster!). No breakpoint or spreadsheet is going to tell you what AoE is doing to your damage numbers, unless an enemy happens to be in the exact right position that WOULDN'T overlap without the AoE node.

Maybe read up on Toxic Rain mechanics for single target, the wiki https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Toxic_Rain has some links. There was some testing done and "the community" came up with a specific AoE number for maximizing single target DPS. This is (presumably) due to specific TR mechanics that it has a large AoE in which projectiles drop and the projectiles themselves have smaller AoEs in them. If it works like I think (no evidence, just guess) then that makes sense too mathematically.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Regarding DPS numbers, YES! You can tell the difference in-game and for some people that is enough. Having enough dps, not using PoB but using ONLY your in-game experience, is plenty.

I cant do that for DPS either.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

But the point I was trying to make

The argument applies to AoE same way as to DPS. Some want to maximize their AoE, other want to maximize their DPS.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

If you REALLY cared, I mean REALLY really cared: the only thing that matters is how the build FEELS in the game.

No. Some people (lots in trade league early on to get an advantage economically probably) play competitively or goal oriented.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

There is no contradiction, its just a difference of priority from a player standpoint. DPS/HP/DEFENSE are things that players WANT to be able to see numerically, AoE is not.

False: I as a player want to see AoE. You do not speak for me. And see above for the contradiction part with Toxic Rain, probably other skills like Blazing Salvo, Forbidden Rite, overlappers like KB also: DPS is influenced by AoE values. Means AoE is part of the effective DPS calculation.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

When you start operating off of a spreadsheet, worrying about breakpoints and the nitty gritty details that are ultimately meaningless...you've sort of lost the ability to actually enjoy the game. Hence a post like this one

In case you are unaware of: There seem to be a lot of "players" that enjoy build planning more than playing. (Not that it matters. Its not your "right" to tell others how to have fun or not.)