Game Mechanics are too convoluted with Insufficient Information for Players.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

All that players really need is to take a step back....and focus on the game itself. Nearly all the information you need comes from PLAYING. Dying too much? The game, in most cases, shows you what is killing you. DoT is easy to see, and you can trial and error WHAT the DoT is. Getting one-shot? Your life pool or damage reduction isn't enough. You aren't killing mobs before they kill you? Your dps isn't enough. Your goal is to pop whole screens and its not happening? Your AoE isn't enough.

Not consistent with my own experiences and does not match all those complaint posts in the forum and reddit. And maybe you never saw RIP analyzation threads? Even with video its often hard or impossible to tell what caused the RIP.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

No numbers are even necessary. All that's needed is a general understanding of game mechanics and THAT is where the game lacks information.

This is in stark contrast to your earlier post? Like "everything that is in PoB and has been in PoB for YEARS should be in the goddamn game itself." https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3388730/page/2#p24997769 So basically you changed your opinion?

Dude, I'm done. You are picking and choosing what to read and understand and comparing unequivalent things.

The numbers aren't necessary, but that doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T be there. Hence my other post in an entirely different thread with an entirely different argument.

Can I kill the shaper in under 20 minutes? How about in under 10 minutes? Do I need numbers to tell me the difference between a 20m fight and a 10m fight? Absolutely not. Do I WANT the numbers? ABSOLUTELY. As I've repeatedly said, games like this one are all about the actual numerical values of DAMAGE. Players strive for damage damage damage damage above all else. And if the game isn't telling us our damage, we look to 3rd party software to tell us that information.

This isn't a necessity for game play, it is a basic desire of playing an arpg. Two SEPARATE issues. What is needed vs. what is WANTED. This thread is about "insufficient information" regarding game mechanics which, for the most part, just isn't true. However, insufficient information regarding specific things such as actual functional damage numbers: true. I said as much in my very first post on this thread.

In your very specific example of Toxic Rain and AoE, you are complaining about the lack of information on AoE as it relates to the dps of Toxic Rain. But the AoE itself, no matter the radius, has ZERO literal connection to dps. It only has a connection as it performs within the game itself, which is an observable action.

You are right, what I am saying is not consistent with "all those complaint posts" because people would rather complain then play the game. All those RIP analyzation threads you mention, or at least 99% of them, come down to players who don't fundamentally understand the mechanics of the game. They complain about not knowing what killed them, but then you take a quick glance at their build and realize they stack damage avoidance and no mitigation, or vice versa, or completely lack defense against a specific damage type.

I have ALMOST zero issues knowing what kills me in this game, but there are the rare exception of encountering damage I know nothing about. Since you like to look at my other posts, see my thread on Uul Netol degens.

I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who reads only half of what I right so I'll just leave it at "agree to disagree" on this particular issue. And for the record, I was originally agreeing with most of your initial point but because of the half-reading it seems that my thoughts have been twisted into complete disagreement.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Dude, I'm done. You are picking and choosing what to read and understand and comparing unequivalent things.

If there was a misunderstanding then its in large part due to you using words like "necessary" and "needed". The issue with these here is that you can always argue for everything in the game that its not "necessary" or "needed". Using wording like "I want" (~= "should") is much better understandable.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

The numbers aren't necessary, but that doesn't mean they SHOULDN'T be there. Hence my other post in an entirely different thread with an entirely different argument.

The link I provided was in this same thread and not "some other" one.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

This isn't a necessity for game play, it is a basic desire of playing an arpg. Two SEPARATE issues. What is needed vs. what is WANTED.

Do not agree. If you use "necessity" or "needed" you need to give clear context for it to be properly understandable.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

In your very specific example of Toxic Rain and AoE, you are complaining about the lack of information on AoE as it relates to the dps of Toxic Rain. But the AoE itself, no matter the radius, has ZERO literal connection to dps. It only has a connection as it performs within the game itself, which is an observable action.

With dps I mean the actual damage done. How long it takes to kill a target. If you are trying to say that most players are not interested in the summary damage but only in some part like a single DoT area - obviously I disagree. Maybe define what you mean with "dps". (And dealing damage is also an "observable action".)

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jsuslak313 wrote:

You are right, what I am saying is not consistent with "all those complaint posts" because people would rather complain then play the game. All those RIP analyzation threads you mention, or at least 99% of them, come down to players who don't fundamentally understand the mechanics of the game. They complain about not knowing what killed them, but then you take a quick glance at their build and realize they stack damage avoidance and no mitigation, or vice versa, or completely lack defense against a specific damage type.

Whats your point? And no build is "perfect", most builds have weaknesses.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

I have ALMOST zero issues knowing what kills me in this game, but there are the rare exception of encountering damage I know nothing about.

Not true for me - 2 of 3 RIPs last league I do not know the cause of death.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Since you like to look at my other posts,

See above - my link above refers to your post in this thread.

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Blubbey wrote:

Can we just agree, that 10% more/increased should deliver literal 10% ?

No, because math is a treacherous bastard.

I am also convinced that several nodes do not give the listed bonuses.

just because GGG sometimes does that with items and skill descriptions. Remember that people used Vulnerability for a stat for YEARS and they just said we removed it and it didn't work. Or the poison mastery lowering duration instead of increasing dps.

well I think its pretty clear. nearby*1.10=nearby.

Agree with the OP. By giving only vague descriptions, we can't even tell if something is bugged, as another pointed out.

This type of game requires us to evaluate options. Which is better? What kind of synergies can i get moving from Set_A(gear+skills+passives) to Set_B(gear+skills+passives)? Do they work in one environment but not another?

Part of the fun of playing is coming up with new combos, new synergies that provide better gameplay. Some things are explained well. Some are not.

Used to play ESO (Elder Scrolls Online). There were tools, mods, that could read game data and provide a summary of how much damage was done by each attack. How much uptime did each buff have. What was your overall damage per second. No such thing in PoE.

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samite_alchemist wrote:

Agree with the OP. By giving only vague descriptions, we can't even tell if something is bugged, as another pointed out.

This type of game requires us to evaluate options. Which is better? What kind of synergies can i get moving from Set_A(gear+skills+passives) to Set_B(gear+skills+passives)? Do they work in one environment but not another?

Part of the fun of playing is coming up with new combos, new synergies that provide better gameplay. Some things are explained well. Some are not.

Used to play ESO (Elder Scrolls Online). There were tools, mods, that could read game data and provide a summary of how much damage was done by each attack. How much uptime did each buff have. What was your overall damage per second. No such thing in PoE.

That's a great example of a game selling its soul, The elder scrolls online was one of the worst things to happen to gaming in general in many years, its a mockery of all the other elder scrolls and despite its massive world barely has the depth of a farcry game when it really comes down to the "sandbox rpg character building" that all of their other games were known for.

Good thing it wasn't the same studio that made it or any of the other elder scrolls or that would've probably been the death of Bethesda forever.

Played for 1000+ hours, its a box opening game with lots of social features.

When I first started I always read what others said about it and the first warning sign I got was this:
"Don't these new players know that all those increases to spell and melee don't do much at all?"

And the entire tree you're navigating around is literally nothing but 12% increase that to 30% increase this or 6% penetration that...
and it doesn't really help any of the builds the way that we think it does?

I know it's true, because I didn't believe it starting out when it doesn't really do anything.

If they had changed 'increase' to 'improve' on the tree I would be in a legitimate argument.

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didira wrote:

When I first started I always read what others said about it and the first warning sign I got was this:
"Don't these new players know that all those increases to spell and melee don't do much at all?"

And the entire tree you're navigating around is literally nothing but 12% increase that to 30% increase this or 6% penetration that...
and it doesn't really help any of the builds the way that we think it does?

I know it's true, because I didn't believe it starting out when it doesn't really do anything.

If they had changed 'increase' to 'improve' on the tree I would be in a legitimate argument.

it does help, how much is the key here. Increase helps a bit, MORE helps ALOT, Pen helps depending on the case, it can be lil it can be tons. I like how complex this game is, and with in-game-time and experience you surely will figure this out.

What I see new players are clinging to is raw dps figures, which by no means translate to actual damage you deal to mobs. Things like dps up time, survability, how the damage is directed, applied or concentrated/spread out all play a role in this game. I think this mindset speaks more about what direction the new games are heading and not about poe at all.

The tools that players use (pob, poeninja, etc) seem to confuse and give false impressions on new players.

My advice is play more, figure things out first, then when you want to push and calculate things precisely and easily go for those tools. They are a god sent for players that used to use excell in the past.

Edit: another thing, terrible imo, that happen to this game is popularity of streamer content. Players watch min-maxed builds that nuke the content of the game and try to emulate that.