[April 12] Initial Development Manifesto Feedback
" Your input is not deterministic and the whole system is very condition-dependent. Sure, if the server waited for every input, it would work. That's the system for MOBAs, it just introduces delay. They don't want that. The server has to take a decision for pathing every mob. It does that BEFORE getting your precise input. The client does the same, separately. Since GGG chose to have 1) High mob density 2) Full collision between EVERY entity 3) cluttered maps with chokepoints and obstacles 4) "subtle" pathing (whatever that means, probably a complex, semi-random algorithm) there is VERY little chance of the two being in sync. It works in simple situations (a group of skeletons in a plain, for example, with you approaching slowly or not moving) and breaks down when you have a dozen of mobs, some fast moving, in a small room with rocks in the middle (the Pyramid) One mob moves, block another, which has to change pathing etc. It's a cascade system, chaotic by design. Even if you started from the same conditions, latency would automatically make the two states diverge. GGG knew that and decided to implement it nonetheless. And implement conditions that would make it worse. (Bottlenecks, WB on rock monsters etc..) And make the melee system require precise positioning despite their system not giving it in many conditions THEY created. Like their post said, they're not willing to compromize on their "hardcore mechanics" even if faced with the law of physics. Player experience has to take bottom place. "Hardcoreness" comes first. | |
|
About Melee X Ranged Balance:
- Consider creating a global mechanic (always in effect unless altered by a Keystone Passive and/or Unique) that reduces ALL damage taken (elemental and physical) by players in proportion to the player's distance to an attacking enemy. In other words: the closer you are to an enemy damaging you, the less damage you take. You would not have to weaken Ranged builds, since you'd go from the damage mobs deal right now and reduce it (as you see fit) globally to players who fight closer. It would also mean a medium-ranged build (EK? Some Freezing Pulsers) would also take a bit less damage which would be fair relative to the safety of archers/true ranged players. In the end, it would simply grant a reason/benefit to players who prefer to go toe-to-toe: a VERY welcome and needed defensive boost to melee. >> For those who need a more logical argument (even though it is a fantasy game): the closer you are to a threat, the better you can assess and avoid it, even if partially. >> The exception to this global mechanic might be enemy Totems and Traps, but these pose a different challenge and require spatial awareness from the player (which in fact is also more of a problem to melee). >> You could allow this global mechanic about distance/damage taken to only work when the player is wielding melee weapons. This would prevent point-blank archers and wanders to benefit from more survivability. - Also, multi-projectile mobs are simply too powerful against melee players. Consider letting no more than 2 projectiles from a mob hit a player in a single attack. It can be a huge problem getting up and close versus multi-projectile mobs right now. - - - By the way: PINEAPPLE WORST FRUIT. >> Allow Home and End keys to quickly travel through the Stash!!! Last edited by markus7 on Apr 14, 2013, 2:23:37 PM
| |
" I disagree. The games can be completely parallel and deterministic. The decision the client makes has to be the same decision the server WILL make (for non-cheaters.) The server and client (can) have exactly the same geometry, paths, mobs, everything. If decisions are being influenced by graphics cards, then that is just incorrect design. All that should happen is that the server plays exactly the same game (in effect shadowing the client), a little shifted in time. To state it another way: I give you an initial random seed, then ask you to generate (using the exact same pseudo-RNG) a stream of pseudo-random numbers at 1000ms intervals. Whenever the user clicks the mouse, you generate a mouse click event with a timestamp accurate to 1ms (say) and generate an extra random number. On the server side, I will be able to generate the exact same sequence of random numbers EVEN DAYS LATER, because I know the starting time and the exact time of each click. This is all I am saying. For a single player session, the server can act merely to verify that the game was played without cheating. |
|
" I agree and i think you explain exactly what i am thinking but cant write because my English is not good enough. +1 | |
|
"Manifesto feedback" feedback: Could we have a separate thread for each entry in the manifesto?
|
|
|
Hoenstly people, if you don't understand how client and server interact, shut the fuck up.
The issue is the too complicated for you to commentate on. Sounds harsh but that's how it is. The whole game was designed the way it is, pathfinding, calculations, interations etc pp. You really cannot change the issue that easily w/o drastically influencing game mechanics. Chris explained it well didn't he? If you are not satisfied, choose the best of the solutions which were presented instead of whining *I see no hope for this game blabla*. Or tell us how you intend to solve the problem. http://tinyurl.com/ooety9v - Ranger bow lightning arrow crit build
| |
|
OK, having reread the GGG post, I see exactly what was being talked about re: desync. Previously the messages were "it's being worked on, we'll fix it". Now the message has become "due to our absolute devotion to specific mechanics, fixing desync will remain a work in progress, as the laws of physics prevent us from implementing what we want and delivering a consistent experience to the player.
A key indicator of how far wrong you've gone in your thinking "rubberbanding is good.". Wow, the level of disconnection from reality in that statement is profound. You have so focused your thinking around being set on doing things one way, that it has utterly destroyed your ability to think rationally about the issues surrounding it. To GGG: What you have implemented is not "hardcore". It's broken, pure and simple. Because it breaks *frequently*, it vastly reduces the SKILL component of play. Because it breaks frequently, players are trained to know they cannot rely on the information presented to them. With today's prediction/descync code (10.6), I typically see substantial desync effects (where I am either attacking mobs who are not where they were displayed, or am being attacked by mobs who were not being shown as being in position to attack me) every 2-3 packs of mobs. Most of my deaths come at the hands of desync events. Despite loving nearly every other aspect of the game, this is a dealbreaker for me. Because death represents the loss of hours (and even more as I progress) of effort, dying due to circumstances I could not observe and react to undoes every bit of "destress" the game delivers for me. That's not entertainment. While Diablo 3 may sacrifice some aspects of accuracy, by and large the information it presents to players can be believed in. I'll check back in from time to time, but unless you change your mind, you've lost a customer. Last edited by Ikariusrb on Apr 14, 2013, 2:50:24 PM
| |
|
In regards to Hardcore, I won't ever play it until the desync is fixed.
However, you guys aren't losing a customer, as every other aspect of the game is astounding. I'll play with a smile on my face until the desync is fixed in Hardcore. There's no problems from my end with waiting until it's fixed, but I suggest you guys try something soon. In my honest opinion, it's completely ignorant (@Ikarlusrb) to disregard Path of Exile and not play the game due to one game-mode being broken. If you are truly impressed with the game, as many people are, then you'll put this aside and play normally. Sure, you don't have the "prestige" of playing Hardcore, but you're still playing a great game. However, I must say, not fixing the desync is simply bad marketing for GGG; something that shouldn't be rushed to fix - but should be fixed with some degree of priority. It doesn't have to be first and foremost, but worked on with any new game-play additions and preemptively patched in with any new additions to ensure the patch is completed faster and with less bugs. Last edited by Bloodlust666 on Apr 14, 2013, 1:38:13 PM
|
|
|
as a fairly new player I would like to see some more experience/items on the maps. So far Ive died to a rogue mob that one hits me (ridiculous) and no im really not that bad.
The problem I have is that I dont play in groups, i tend to solo play so i use what i find, and unforunately I am finding NOTHING of use as an upgrade since about lvl 56, even when i am playing in 69+ maps. yes ive rolled the quantity/quality stuff but I find nothing and the RNG is horrid. But so far all i am finding is a screen full of crap and actually NOTHING of use. I really mean NOTHING. found an armour once which was nice and so far used 320 fusings on it and now thinking wow, this is b*shit. Im still finding rares that are worthless to my level and would be good (if only I were lvl 25 again). The RNG on maps is ridiculous and bearing in mind u can only access them when u have done the game is a kind of kick in the face | |
" Well put. Get rid of the gimmicks if it fixes desync. The game will play the same regardless. |
