3.17 = one month retention

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Izrakhan wrote:

The big money is unironically in mobile, MOBAs and ARPGs

What ARPG's are currently pumping out more revenue than WoW, ESO, FFXIV, NW, or Destiny 2 just to name a few?

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Izrakhan wrote:

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jdp29 wrote:

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Izrakhan wrote:

MMOs aren't that popular actually.

EverQuest preceded WoW and captured at its maximum 600k concurrent subscribers then settled somewhere around 300k.

WoW benefitted enormously from the Warcraft IP which had millions of fans already. So it was braindead easy to predict WoW's success. In fact many of the current WoW player base really only care about Warcraft. The game itself is garbage.

Really popular games are games that are fast paced, fast matching and very little ramp up time. Think League kind of gameplay.

WoW did not benefit from the Warcraft IP. In fact, a lot of Warcraft players scoffed at the notion of how Warcraft would translate to an MMO. Warcraft succeeded because it took the best of Everquest, UO, AC, DAOC, FFXI and got rid of the bad parts, the xp loss, wasted time corpse running naked, (and then dying more), the lack of quests, ect. It added massive QOL that to this day is being emulated.

Corpse running as a ghost was so much better than anything else at the time, it isn't even funny. Very little lost time, no xp loss, etc. Quests made the world feel alive and vibrant, and you didn't have to kill mobs over and over and over to level up. Instanced dungeons made it so you weren't competing with other groups for xp and mobs.

So what you're saying is the 15-30 year old male PC gamer audience that loved Warcraft didn't sign up for WoW for reasons?

Ok.

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Izrakhan wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Izrakhan wrote:

The big money is unironically in mobile, MOBAs and ARPGs

What ARPG's are currently pumping out more revenue than WoW, ESO, FFXIV, NW, or Destiny 2 just to name a few?

It has to be stressed that production costs factor into this. So an MMORPG is a lot more expensive to dev than an ARPG is. It's not just server architecture but the network code, the wide array of devices and competitive play that has to be factored in. Think what Blizzard spends on PvP development alone for WoW.

Diablo 2 didn't have arenas. All the PvP happened in the same zones the PvE happened. This a good example of why ARPGs are cheaper.

So they don't need to make as much as WoW to be more profitable. They just need to spend less.

But that said factor in all the ARPG space. Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Elden Ring also have to be considered. The smaller ARPGs like Grim Dawn also have to be considered. Grim Dawn for instance has 5 million box sales. You might wonder how that happened but it's because ARPG is still a very relevant genre.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I guess we just agree to disagree.

I wouldn't exactly put Souls games, and Elden Ring (which is open world), in the same category as Grim Dawn and PoE as arpg's, but you do you.

As far as mentioning Grim Dawn / Crate as part of "big money" arpgs, Bungie (Destiny Franchise) just sold for 3.6 Billion to Sony. We are not even in the same universe here...

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Izrakhan wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I guess we just agree to disagree.

I wouldn't exactly put Souls games, and Elden Ring (which is open world), in the same category as Grim Dawn and PoE as arpg's, but you do you.

As far as mentioning Grim Dawn / Crate as part of "big money" arpgs, Bungie (Destiny Franchise) just sold for 3.6 Billion to Sony. We are not even in the same universe here...

Sony's purchase of Bungie is more than just surface level info.

Bungie developed Halo. I'm not sure if you're aware of that. So it's a long term bet. Destiny is a popular game but Bungie can also pull another monster hit in the pipeline.

What MS and Sony are doing is competing on talent acquisitions at the moment. So some overspending is going on.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

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Izrakhan wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I guess we just agree to disagree.

I wouldn't exactly put Souls games, and Elden Ring (which is open world), in the same category as Grim Dawn and PoE as arpg's, but you do you.

As far as mentioning Grim Dawn / Crate as part of "big money" arpgs, Bungie (Destiny Franchise) just sold for 3.6 Billion to Sony. We are not even in the same universe here...

Sony's purchase of Bungie is more than just surface level info.

Bungie developed Halo. I'm not sure if you're aware of that. So it's a long term bet. Destiny is a popular game but Bungie can also pull another monster hit in the pipeline.

What MS and Sony are doing is competing on talent acquisitions at the moment. So some overspending is going on.

I know that, but Bungie doesn't even own Halo any longer. They only game being monetized by Bungie is Destiny. Sure there might be a long game for Sony but that isnt the discussion we were having.

You said the "big money" wasnt in MMO's, it was Arpgs's and I disputed that with evidence. You are wrong, factually speaking.