What's wrong with deterministic crafting?
" This is "only" true, if you play the game as intended. Like clearing a map normally and doing all the things. However, if you do run a speedfarm build and do nothing but Harvest, ignoring everything else - not even touching normal mobs at all to maximize the amount of Groves you can enconter per hour - then you will still get very good results. If you are willing to abuse TFT (which I dont), Harvest can still yield 20ex per hour pure profit - give or take. Its still insanely good, if you wanted it to be but the downsides are considerable. Doesnt change the fact that some players will do it as long as the profit margin is good enough. The regular player wont do it tho and it this scenario Harvest is pretty bad yeah. I´ll ignore the SSF argument because SSF is a self-imposed challenge thats got absolutely nothing to do with the game. Its a choice, nothing more and nothing less. I´ll also stick to what I said several times: Harvest is a big fucking mess and should be killed with fire for good. Its still splitting the playerbase for no good reason. Crafting was fine before Harvest and it would still be fine after Harvest. Also Aisling, Awakener Orbs and co are more than good enough to get pretty all the gear you ever wanted. SSF or trade, doesnt matter. Last edited by Orbaal#0435 on Jun 22, 2021, 3:48:01 PM
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" Just give it a rest. You will (sadly) never convince the community that anything negative can come from trading. Everything should be designed with an open market in mind, and everything that isn't, is "bad". You know, because buying an epic weapon is so much "hardcore" than spending weeks farming and crafting it. TFT was (one of) the main problem(s) with Harvest pre-Ultimatum, and probably still is. It should either have been made impossible to trade Harvest craft and balance thereafter, or made easy to trade and balanced thereafter. But the main problem with Harvest, was that it was so powerful that you HAD to do it to "keep with the times". TONS of people felt forced to run Haewark Hamlet - and felt forced to take the Harvest nodes in the zone. The "FoMo" level here was HUGE! I'll miss pre-ultimatum Harvest for a long time, but I understand perfectly why they nerfed/destroyed it. And as I've written before in here; the only way to introduce something that powerful, is to distribute that power on several pre-existing mechanics. " I'll never understand this. While that statement is very subjective, I'm having a very hard time understanding why that feels more like cheating, than to straight out use your currency to buy an item - instead of crafting it. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile. Last edited by Phrazz#3529 on Jun 22, 2021, 4:05:32 PM
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" What you said is true ONLY WHEN YOU ASSUME THAT YOU ARE GAMBLING! I'm playing ARPG. I'm not gambling. I want my loot to come from my game knowledge, good build planning and strong gameplay, not pure luck and some convoluted glitch that people would abuse. Ironically, even Taxes Poker looks more skill-based and deterministic to me than POE crafting. Taxes poker is at least 50% skill based, where POE crafting is like 25% at most. |
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" From my perspective this mindset is just awfully wrong. You put a mechanic in a game, which is then abused in unexpected ways to break the game. Now there are two options available. 1) Prevent the abuse 2) Remove the mechanic. It's beyond me how people can actually advocate for the latter being the right course of action. And please don't call this gambling shit crafting, it's an insult. POE never had crafting before harvest and it doesn't have now. All there is is gambling and trading. Last edited by Baharoth15#0429 on Jun 22, 2021, 4:27:52 PM
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" I get why you´d think that way. Having said that: Time/Usage limits, account bound and all that stuff arent part of this game. Never haven been and never should be. Having no limits or caps or anything like this is one of the great perks this game has to offer. Any mechanic´s balance has to reflect this and has to be able to handle min/maxed abuse or go the way of the Dodo. This is where Harvest falls short and the Devs messed up big time. Its not like they didnt see this coming, there is a reason why Chris said Harvest would break the game BEFORE its release. It should have been an experimental fun league to collect data and no more. GGG did this to themselves by not sticking to their guns. I dont think Harvest can be salvaged in the afore mentioned ruleset of no limitations whatsoever and thus Harvest should just go. Maybe this helps you to understand where Im coming from ;) Last edited by Orbaal#0435 on Jun 22, 2021, 4:50:40 PM
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" I don't know what people want, so I'll speak for myself: I saw in Harvest the means to not have to rely on trading to equip my characters effectively, along the course of the league, with a comparable amount of effort. So, if you want to put it in terms of the perfect amounts of randomness (or determinism), then yes. That was good enough. BTW, "deterministic crafting" is a phrase that Chris himself used to allude to the crafting method provided by Harvest: From the Harvest Manifesto: "We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting...". And I use it in that context. |
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" Yeah you´re right, and I didn´t want to imply my opinion was better than anyone elses. What I meant with unhealthy was not the implications from harvest itself, rather than that harvest was too good to pass on, making other things like fossils, chaos-spamming, essences... pretty much anything else redundant or obsolete. Right now, I might be wrong here, but I feel there is a decent balance between all crafting-options and to produce really good items you would combine those. When Harvest was at it´s maximum strength, there was nothing else, it was game-consuming, at least from the crafting-part. And that´s what I would call unhealthy. I didn´t even refer to the powercreep, I have ambivalent thoughts about that :D " I´ve invested a bit into harvest and used it, and found some stuff but I agree. The spawnrates are extremely low and without TFT you wouldn´t be able to use it to full extent. Like that I don´t really see the reasons for augments right now, as rare as they are they sell for 6-19ex, depending on the mod-group. Better off selling it for sure. |
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What is deterministic crafting and what's right with it?
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" How would you purpose this happen? Any item that has a Harvest craft used on it becomes Bind on Account? GGG and a large number of top-level end game players LOATHE the idea of Bind on Account. Outside of Bind on Account I don't see how you can stop people from trading Harvest crafts. You trade an item, the other person uses Harvest crafts on an item, the other person trades it back. At no point would the game code have any way to know "a Harvest craft trade has occurred." Therefore, if you argue for banning Harvest trades, you will probably have to convince GGG to implement Bind on Account, which I don't think will ever happen. Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/
Contact support@grindinggear.com for account issues. Check out How to Report Bugs + Post Images at: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/18347 |
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" You have fossil and essence, beastcrafting as well as the crafting bench. Those all have deterministic crafting element in them. |
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