Porcupine Goliath Damage is too much

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Candlejack297 wrote:


Out of curiosity, what do you actually see 8k+ es ci/ll witches do for physical damage reduction, especially with the warlord's mark and ic nerfs? Most pure es builds I've seen just attempt to tank hits and heal/regen it up (disc with +es on hits and a bunch of the new leech nodes and support). Seriously, what kind of layered defenses do you see pure es builds or eb/mom builds do? Block at best? What about bow+quiver casters? For bosses, you can always "git gud" and manual dodge stuff, but porcupines (still a normal trash mob that probably dies in 1-2 hits like most other trash mobs) just kills you from offscreen after you've already cleared them.

Is the goal for porcupines to only kill certain types of builds? Seems like a weird design for one kind of otherwise random trash mob in a game where most trash is completely forgettable and dies by the hundreds.


Why would an ES witch go close enough to porcs to get hit significantly in the first place? My Occultist has little to no defenses against procs aside from 7k EHP and I never had problems with them despite that because they aren't much of a threat unless you blow them up while standing right in the pack.

As to what defenses to use, there is MoM, shatter effects, Granite/Basalt Flasks and a good old frostwall. Porcs on death effect is a projectile and gets shut down by walls entirely. There are also gear options like Lightning Coil to reduce physical damage but most of them aren't really easy to fit into builds so I would go with one of the other options.
Last edited by Baharoth15#0429 on Sep 18, 2019, 9:33:40 AM
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Candlejack297 wrote:

As a fireball sorc witch, why would I be close enough to generate endurance charges from a warcry? I might literally just die to the hits while casting it or get stunlocked or something.


the range on enduring cry is pretty far. I use it on every single build, Ive used it on every build Ive made in 6 years playing the game and theres always mobs ending up close enough to keep charges up. its got a really low cast time.

essentially its 1 button u push now and then, i wouldnt give up the passive power of a jewel slot or a whole curse to get out of pressing 1 button on a somewhat regular basis to keep them up.

enduring cry, basalt and cwdt+enfeeble. I cant remember the last time i made a build that didnt have those things. Casters, bows, melee, everything, to me its like using a life flask on a life build, its always there. I think my current bane build is an exception in that its enfeeble gets autocast with bane rather than cwdt.


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Candlejack297 wrote:

I don't think that's true at all, I see porcs blow their way through 8k+ es all the time.


8k es is awful defence tho if thats essentially the bulk of whats going on. its considerably worse than 8k life and if the sum total of ur defence is 8k life then even thats awful. 8k life + 8k armour? id still call that bad personally.

it happens, people build like that, not dissing them, having awful defence is pretty much par for the course in poe over the last 3 or 4 years. awful defence, obscene dps, instakill everything, thats pretty much the consistent meta when u zoom out and take an overview of what people are doing.

its fine, nothing wrong with people playing like that. but its worth recognising its awful defence by the standards of what the game offers, because that matters when it comes to game balance discussion, whats a problem with the game and whats a problem with the way the player is playing it? if the tools are there and people dont use them, thats on the players not the game.



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Candlejack297 wrote:

Out of curiosity, what do you actually see 8k+ es ci/ll witches do for physical damage reduction, especially with the warlord's mark and ic nerfs? Most pure es builds I've seen just attempt to tank hits and heal/regen it up (disc with +es on hits and a bunch of the new leech nodes and support). Seriously, what kind of layered defenses do you see pure es builds or eb/mom builds do? Block at best? What about bow+quiver casters?



long answer...

Spoiler

im honestly not sure. A basalt + 3 endurance charges is what? 27% phys reduction? its not a lot but its something. I think a lot of the people just die, decide es sucks and stop playing it tbh, or simply live with dying so to speak, accept it as something that happens.

pure es like that is pretty sketchy, personally I dont recommend it, I havent really played with it since they removed instant vaal pact leech from energy shield, and even then it was kind of sketchy defence being propped up by a sketchy cheese leech mechanic.


The big regen tanks work, where people stack absolutely gigantic amounts of es and life regen with zealots oath. For regular es where you got 8-10k es... man, I just dont play it personally, i think its horrible. Its not alone tho, pure evasion is horrible too, so it pure armour. 2 is always more than 1, its as simple as that really, if you have armour + block its better than just having armour, of course it is, it has to be right? its simple logic.

Doing 2 things that work together is possible if its planned for correctly. Ci or life+es, they go well with evasion. If you add evasion in there its just so much better, to the point where I dunno why id play that sort of build without it. Block goes well with armour, evasion goes well with armour, phys taken as ele goes well with evasion+dodge...

if you get 2 things that do different things and put them together thats usually a solid start, and then u can crowbar in some little buff ups on top.

2 things that do the same thing dont count, evasion + dodge doesnt count, they both avoid damage, different mechanics but amount to the same thing. You can avoid damage (block, evasion, dodge), you can reduce damage (resist, armour) and you can absorb damage (life, energy shield). So you got 3 basic forms of dealing with incoming damage, everyone has an hp pool of some sort, standard hp pool doesnt count, when I say absorb im talking about getting an excessive amount of hp buffer beyond the usual 6k (ish) that would be recommended for every build.

putting 2 of these 3 general categories together is usually good. Majoring in only 1 of them is usually insufficient for 'good' defences. There can be a 4th category, which is recovery (leech, regen etc). Back in the bad days of vaal pact recovery was more significant, and im sure theres still regen tanks working just fine, but most of the time recovery has been too strongly curbed and spike damage is too rapid and deadly for it to be such a big factor. Its one of those things that you can crowbar in where you can on top of your major defences as a nice extra buff.


So thats how id look at defence in general. Life, es, mom, theyre all hp buffer, theyre all about absorbing damage. Thats cool, but if its proving insufficient and you want to step it up then pick something from the other categories basically. Different builds have different itemisation opportunities, different tree placements, figuring out what is the best viable investment is something you got to deal with on a case by case basis.

block? armour? evasion? phys taken as ele? dodge? these are all options to stack along side a build with a strong hp buffer that absorbs a lot of damage.


if worst comes to worst just going endurance, basalt, enfeeble and suffering through that sort of half measure defence setup might be the only realistic option given a character who is already far down the road of its existing build, but its something to think about for future builds while theyre still on paper.



evasion+dodge & phys taken as ele

armour & evasion

es buffer & evasion

armour & block

es buffer & block


these combos where u major in 2 things from different categories, they all deal with stuff like porcs no problem, they dont even register as a concern.
I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
I think the last time i died to porcupines was in descent champions.

But i generaly desing my builds with a solid defense in mind. If thats not possible on a particular build, i dont go for it.
IGN: Toxic_Artillery

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https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2161077/page/1
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Candlejack297 wrote:
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Fruz wrote:
8k ES with nothing else is not "good defences", at all.



Out of curiosity, what do you actually see 8k+ es ci/ll witches do for physical damage reduction,

Granite
Basalt
Physical damage taken as elemental
Endurance Charges
Annoint Soul of Steel
Use Chaos Golem
Stibnite
Grace
Any source of blind
Guard skills
Enfeeble mobs
Have some block


Snorkle's answer is more details/helpful I guess, but all elements in that list can be picked, one is not enough, 3 is a minimum imho.


For example, my Ice Storm occultist is wearing this :


Now there isn't flat ES with Occultist anymore so I'd probably go for pure ES base though (since I don't have a shield), still it does barely have 8k ES I think, but porcupines don't really scare me (I shatter too, but even if I didn't, this chest + granite + stibnite + chaos golem and I am fine already).
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.
Last edited by Fruz#6137 on Sep 18, 2019, 12:25:29 PM
By default, the majority of builds run at least one defensive utility. Either pack a CWDT+Molten Shell, or take a granite flask with iron skin suffix. You're playing melee, not a summoner, you don't have an excuse not to take a defense utility.
PoE players: Our game has a wide diversity of builds.

Also PoE players: The [league mechanic] doesn't need to be nerfed, you just need to play a [current meta] build!

MFers found strength in their Afflictions. They became reliant on them. I am not so foolish.
Last edited by Pizzarugi#6258 on Sep 18, 2019, 2:48:02 PM
Anyone remember when they could spawn in chests?

I had my trapper die to them long ago. Open the box and death
These are the only things I’ve died to all league. Now I carry a gem setup and granite flask just so I can get through the map without a bunch of close calls. I just find it stupid that I don’t have to do any of that crap for any other content. I use the same setup for Uber lab, shaper, elder, all other map mods. But if I see porcupines... sigh, gotta switch out flasks, switch out gems. Just because of the porcupines. That screams overtuned. So yes, it can be mitigated but that doesn’t mean OP isn’t right and these things aren’t stupidly overpowered. Albeit, I think, intentionally so. Certainly slows me down. ;)
POE Serenity Prayer: GGG, grant me the serenity to accept the RNG I cannot change,
the courage to challenge any unbalanced content, and the wisdom to avoid the forums.
Mad: "Oh, it's simple and if you insist... I just think you're a dick. That's all."
QFT: 4TRY4C&4NO
Last edited by Phaeded#4782 on Sep 18, 2019, 7:31:36 PM
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Chadwixx wrote:
Anyone remember when they could spawn in chests?

I had my trapper die to them long ago. Open the box and death

They still can, I has one just yesterday.


And it was fine, of course.


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Phaeded wrote:
I just find it stupid that I don’t have to do any of that crap for any other content.

I can definitely agree with that, PoE has became such a binary game in most cases that you just mow trash mobs endlessely from a range and that's it.


Apart from a bunch of melee skills of course.
SSF is not and will never be a standard for balance, it is not for people entitled to getting more without trading.

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