Here are the gem details for the reworked Arc Skill!

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IamLoco wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

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Arrowneous wrote:

I thought I read where GGG said we could just use the Vaal version and not need the regular one to save a socket (and get both on the same 6L). Must have read it wrong... I'll need to find where I read it. No matter, maybe 3 regular + self-cast Vaal Arc would work best.

Think you misunderstood... if you take the passive 1 extra totem, it comes with a "you can't do damage yourself". That would keep you from self-casting vaal arc.

Wrong. You can still cast any spell or use attacks, they just don´t cause damage. So the vaal arc with 4 or 5 totems icluding soul mantle would still apply the shock. (I guess, as long as the chance to shock applies to the regular totem dmg as well)

Yes and no, because you deal zero damage you can't actually shock something, the same goes for freezing mobs. The duration of freeze and shock effect of those afflictions is determined by how much of a % of life you deal to a target when a shock / freeze is triggered, and it carries a required minimum of about 300ms feeze / 1% worth of shock to apply an effect ( inc effect duration will allow you to require less damage ), which is about .2% of a target's health at minimum.

So, even though you have 100% chance to shock / freeze, it doesn't matter if you can't do enough damage to trigger at least a minimum effect ( and 300ms would pretty much instantly wear off, and 1% inc damage would be so small anyway ..so it would be pointless. )

Don't be fooled by the duration wording on vaal arc, it only affects the arc buff itself, it's not shock duration.

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SilentStorm625 wrote:

sillyQ: does vaal ark level up to 20? also if my arc becomes lvl20 can i reset it as usual to get quality (with a gemcutter prism)?

cheers

Since Arc and Vaal Arc is now in 1 gem, I assume it works like a normal gem used to work.

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SilentStorm625 wrote:

sillyQ: does vaal ark level up to 20? also if my arc becomes lvl20 can i reset it as usual to get quality (with a gemcutter prism)?

cheers

Yes, vaal arc levels up to 20 as usual, yes you can use the GCP recipe to make a gem 20 quality, but you cannot use the GCP recipe to make a vaal gem 20 quality (unless that changes this patch). You're best bet at getting a 20Q vaal gem would either be the uber lab, or corrupting a 20Q regular gem and hoping it becomes a vaal gem.

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CrazylikE wrote:

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mrhoary wrote:

I'm unclear on the math here. "15% more damage for each remaining chain." I mean, I understand what it means, obviously, but the underlying math, whether it's additive or multiplicative for each one remaining, is unclear. i.e. Against a single target, would it do 205% damage (1.15x7) or 266% damage (1.15^7)?

105%, 15x7.

Isn't "more" multplicative not addtive?

Oh arc, how I love thee

im glad your back old friend

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CrazylikE wrote:

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SilentStorm625 wrote:

sillyQ: does vaal ark level up to 20? also if my arc becomes lvl20 can i reset it as usual to get quality (with a gemcutter prism)?

cheers

Since Arc and Vaal Arc is now in 1 gem, I assume it works like a normal gem used to work.

To clarify, there are two ways of getting Arc; one via the normal means of a normal Arc gem, and the other via the new interaction with Vaal Arc.

If you use Vaal Arc for your Normal Arc skill, you have to follow typical corrupted / Vaal mechanics, which means you can't alter them beyond their initial creation, you can only level them up.

So while a Vaal gem could possibly get 21/20 via outside sources like strongboxes / shrines / corrupting a normal gem, etc. You won't be able to achieve that via the same methods you would a normal uncorrupted gem ( so nothing has changed mechanically ).

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Nishrek wrote:

Isn't "more" multplicative not addtive?

"More" multipliers are additive with each other, but you are correct in that they are not additive with "increase" multipliers. Ergo, the "15 more" damage adds onto itself with each remaining chain, up to 105%, which is then added as a whole multiplicatively to the end result.

One question I would have is if the 105% is local or global; meaning is it also additive to any other more multipliers you may have, like gem supports? In that case, it's not as big of an increase in the end as people make it out to be, but it's still huge while leveling.

thanks a lot guys. much appreciated

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"More" multipliers are additive with each other, but you are correct in that they are not additive with "increase" multipliers.

Actually, 'more' modifiers are multiplicative with each other as well as with 'increase' modifiers. The exception seems to be more multipliers from the same source. So for example - Frenzy charges have a 4% 'more' multiplier, and elemental focus has a 30% 'more' multiplier at gem level 1. So if you had 2 frenzy charges and lv1 elemental focus - out of the below three options, which one is correct:

a) Base Damage * 1.04 * 1.04 * 1.3
b) Base Damage * 1.08 * 1.3
c) Base Damage * 1.38

As I understand it, the correct answer should be B.

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GoldDragon32 wrote:

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"More" multipliers are additive with each other, but you are correct in that they are not additive with "increase" multipliers.

Actually, 'more' modifiers are multiplicative with each other as well as with 'increase' modifiers. The exception seems to be more multipliers from the same source. So for example - Frenzy charges have a 4% 'more' multiplier, and elemental focus has a 30% 'more' multiplier at gem level 1. So if you had 2 frenzy charges and lv1 elemental focus - out of the below three options, which one is correct:

a) Base Damage * 1.04 * 1.04 * 1.3
b) Base Damage * 1.08 * 1.3
c) Base Damage * 1.38

As I understand it, the correct answer should be B.

I think using Frenzy is stating an exception to the rule, just like stating things like "enemy takes 10% increased damage". There's a faint nuance designed to these that is either confusing at first, or intentionally "special" because GGG lacked proper programming or just felt like designing it that way.

That said, yes, I should have been a bit more clear in that multiplicative stats of the same type are additive with each other, I was just talking about the 15% on the gem itself ( since that was the context of the question ), being additive with each other. I then posed the question about whether the bonus was local or global, as relative terms, because that could mean either:

(( 100 + 105% ) x Increase damage modifier ) x More damage modifiers
(( 100 x Increase damage modifiers ) + 105% ) x More damage modifiers
100 x Increase damage modifiers x ( 105% + More damage modifiers )
100 x Increase damage modifiers x ( 105% x More damage modifiers )

Symbolically speaking.

It's something that's bothered me since GGG started adding multipliers to skills and their effectiveness of added damage. And with how finicky GGG is with making their math / mechanics stay universally equal, it's been hard for it to stay grounded in my brain.

One would presume that it's as straightforward as a weapon would be, ( Arc x 2 ) x Modifiers, for single target. But this game is anything but straightforward.

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JoeShmo wrote:

I then posed the question about whether the bonus was local or global, as relative terms, because that could mean either:

(( 100 + 105% ) x Increase damage modifier ) x More damage modifiers
(( 100 x Increase damage modifiers ) + 105% ) x More damage modifiers
100 x Increase damage modifiers x ( 105% + More damage modifiers )
100 x Increase damage modifiers x ( 105% x More damage modifiers )

I dont think there is such a thing as local and global in these sort of mechanics, its just a more multiplier.

Theres never such a thing as "+ more damage modifiers". Theyre always multiplicative, and with multiplying it does matter where they come in the chain because its always the same outcome.


9 x 100 x 10 x 1000 = 9,000,000

1000 x 9 x 100 x 10 = 9,000,000

100 x 1000 x 10 x 9 = 9,000,000

10 x 100 x 9 x 1000 = 9,000,000

they never add with other more multipliers, no source of a more multiplier ever adds with another or is summed and then applied in any fashion afaik, if you have 5 support gems and they all have a more multiplier on them none of them add together, its multiplied 5 times and it doesnt matter what order, If you have frenzy charges thats 1 source of a more multiplier, arcane surge, any source doesnt matter where its from theres no local or global cause it wouldnt make any difference. Theres no "+" when it comes to them, its all just "x".

There isnt really stuff in brackets like base x increase x (more multipliers) when it comes to mores. The only thing summed is all the increased damage stats, they get added to become 1 big multiplier, but once uve taken that as 1 final figure its just

base x increased x more x more x more x more...

ongoing for however many mores you have sources of. There will be a chain of when things are applied, but it doesnt actually effect the outcome.


base x more_A x more_B x increased x more_C

base x increased x more_A x more_B x more_C

base x more_C x more_A x more_B x increased


afaik the second one is correct but it does not matter to the final outcome, they all will result in the same number because theres no bracket situations, just straight multiplying the base figure over and over and over.

Frenzy is 1 source of more damage that is = to 4% for each charge, and this will also presumably be 1 source of more damage that is = to 15% for each remaining chain. These are simply single sources of more damage that are a "% per X variable". Thats the best way to think of them imo, not as internally additive sources (plural) but as simply a single source that is proportional to a given variable. That gets rid of the confusing idea that theres some kind of additive nature to them hence them being an exception to how 'more' works.