change penetration support gems, they are useless now

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Hemmingfish wrote:

That wouldn't be anything new. Back when I started playing (1.0) every monster in the game had 75% in at least one resistance, all the way from Twilight Strand in Normal. They removed them later because physical damage was too strong in comparison to elements.

Edit: typo


And now it's the other way around. It's really baffling to see GGG buffing Pen even more (Tree, items, gems) and doing nothing for phys or chaos dmg. Maybe GGG ignores their own balance team. If they said something about this in the first place.
Did you guys see that in incursion league there will be even more items with penetration.
Check the blue elegant foil: https://www.pathofexile.com/incursion

I know what i'll be playing in that league :)
At worst a pen gem is a 37% more damage multiplier, because resistances don't have a minimum cap. Naturally it is much higher than that if you actually need the pen (like monsters have elemental resistances increased). Considering that most supports are between 30%-50% more, I think that pen gems are fine.
One way to change penetration gems would be to give them a lower base penetration amount, but then give them a more multiplier to how much penetration you do. eg:

Supported Skills Penetrate (15-24)% Lightning Resistance
Supported Skills Penetrate (30-49)% more Lightning Resistance

So it's about as good with no other sources of penetration, and is less obsolete if you have other sources of penetration.

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ghoulavenger wrote:
At worst a pen gem is a 37% more damage multiplier, because resistances don't have a minimum cap. Naturally it is much higher than that if you actually need the pen (like monsters have elemental resistances increased). Considering that most supports are between 30%-50% more, I think that pen gems are fine.
Unfortunately your maths is wrong, as others have already explained above - precisely because resistances don't have a minimum cap.
Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756
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dudiobugtron wrote:

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ghoulavenger wrote:
At worst a pen gem is a 37% more damage multiplier, because resistances don't have a minimum cap. Naturally it is much higher than that if you actually need the pen (like monsters have elemental resistances increased). Considering that most supports are between 30%-50% more, I think that pen gems are fine.
Unfortunately your maths is wrong, as others have already explained above - precisely because resistances don't have a minimum cap.

To make pen worse than a generic more damage multiplier you'd need a monster with under -100 resistance. Considering most monsters with resistance to an element get up to about 40% you'd need a good 140% pen to make that consistent. Combined with curses and certain items it might be feasibly possible, but that's a very extreme edge case. For general purposes pen is fine.
Can you at least post the incorrect maths you are using so we can show you how it's wrong? Like do an example with 100 base damage.
Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756
Last edited by dudiobugtron#4663 on May 11, 2018, 7:57:04 PM
x% penetration becomes less effective than x% more at the point that the enemy's resistance before factoring in that piece of penetration is 0%. But not by that much. When the enemy has existing -100% resistance, x% penetration is as effective as (x/2)% more, which is still quite good.

Remember that modifiers to resistance represent change away from a 100% multiplier; -100% can also be said as "damage multiplier from the Resistance-data-flavour is 200%."
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Penetration subtracts the current resistance of the monster before calculating damage. So if I have 57% penetration, and a monster has 40% resistance, then I have an effective 17% more multiplier.

That is why I said it is still on par at -100%, because it's still multiplicative to damage done of that element. But as with all additive forms of damage, it starts to drop off at the 200% level, since more is multiplicative with all damage and penetration is not multiplicative with itself. So having 10% penetration is NOT strictly 10% more damage, but they're pretty close given that monster resistances are the key here.

If you do it with 100 damage, a 40% more multiplier from any given support it would bump me up to 140 damage, against a monster with 40% fire resistance that would be 84 damage. If instead I had 40% pen, that would be, 100 damage. So when you NEED penetration it is better than a more multiplier.

But lets say that monster had 0 resistance. Then they would both deal 140 damage. If the monster had -50% resistance, that -50% would still subtract the 40% pen, so it would be 190 damage for the pen and 190 (100*1.9) damage for pen, and (100*1.5*1.4) 210 for the 40% more. At -100% it's significantly more pronounced 100*2*1.4=280 for the multiplier versus 100*2.4=240 for the pen. Honestly I wouldn't be USING a pen gem anyway at this point since a roughly 37% more multiplier is worse than something that has 40% anyway at that point, which happens at, exactly 0% resistance like adghar said. But for general purposes pen's fine, for pen to be bad it'd have to be underperforming the typical 30% more multiplier, which it isn't, not even at -100% resistance.

By the way, I do think that the proposed combustion support is pretty OP.
Thanks for posting that maths. This is the bit where you are wrong:

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ghoulavenger wrote:
But for general purposes pen's fine, for pen to be bad it'd have to be underperforming the typical 30% more multiplier, which it isn't, not even at -100% resistance.

100*2*1.3 = 260. In your calculation above, with a 40% pen gem you would do 240.
At -100% resistance, penetration is half as useful, so a 37% pen gem is only as good as an 18.5% more gem.

You can see on this graph that a 37% penetration gem starts underperforming a 30% more gem by around -20% resists, which coincidentally is around the level that the OP is suggesting is easy to get on almost all enemies without a penetration gem:

y axis is effective multiplier of a 37% penetration gem, x axis is effective resistance multiplier. (eg: if you have 40% resists, the effective resistance multiplier is 0.6 - at which time a penetration gem would be amazing.)
Face it, all of your suggestions are worse than this idea:
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/657756
Last edited by dudiobugtron#4663 on May 11, 2018, 9:14:51 PM
i cant belive ppl asking to change the pen gem...
sure there are alot of sources for pen in the game,but op is taking the best rolls and items for his argument.
not everyone is/has these items for different reasons (SSF or simply not buying every single item from other players) so there is a good reason to have these gems.
if you get enough pen from items+ passivs thats great for you,just take a more multiplier gem than.
you dont have to use it,there is absolutly no reason to change these gems because they are very usefull.

its straight up a horrible idea to change usefull things into something else just becasue the best case scenario doesnt need them.

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