Gold Door

And now you are getting to the very exaggerated statements @the normal map running time is 40s ......
-__-

And you are the one that has been splitting hairs here, on top of that, very inconsistent ...

"

Fruz wrote:

And now you are getting to the very exaggerated statements @the normal map running time is 40s ......
-__-

And you are the one that has been splitting hairs here, on top of that, very inconsistent ...

You are misinterpreting/misquoting me. I did not say "normal map running time". Obviously only if you participate in the speed meta with a (speed meta-)compatible build. Thats why I wrote "In speed meta" and "later in character progression".

In case its still unclear: Different people have different perspectives. For some people those 20 seconds matter and for others they dont. You dont have to elevate your own perspective ("doesnt matter") above all others.

The "meta" is just the current global play style.
Anybody can go with it, or plays it's own way obviously, but at the moment, we are all playing a game which meta favors speed to absurd levels.

But even for people playing the speed meta enough, an average map run is not 40 sec, this is a grossly and blatantly over-exaggerating.
It is possible, with very very few tile sets and very few builds, and it isn't even a 100% uptime thing.

-> splitting hairs, again.


But anyway, this "argument" is completely pointless since people going for such speeds could run the lab within 10 mins, or 5, and would not spend 20 sec "backtracking".

"

Fruz wrote:

The "meta" is just the current global play style.
Anybody can go with it, or plays it's own way obviously, but at the moment, we are all playing a game which meta favors speed to absurd levels.

Dont want to argue word definition here. What I meant: If you play a top tier fast clearing build you can "do" one map with fast layout in 40sec. And "do" != "full clear". "Do" can mean maximize xp/h or loot/h.

"

Fruz wrote:

But even for people playing the speed meta enough, an average map run is not 40 sec, this is a grossly and blatantly over-exaggerating.
It is possible, with very very few tile sets and very few builds, and it isn't even a 100% uptime thing.

But it (40sec) is possible as an average. Because "speed meta" is about running maps super fast.
"very very few tile sets": Atlas shaping allows selection of the best layout/s. So if 95+% of map layouts take longer it doesnt matter because in "speed meta" the players dont run those 95+% of layouts.
"very few builds": If 99+% of builds cant do it it dont matter. "speed meta" uses a build which can do it.

"

Fruz wrote:

-> splitting hairs, again.

You thought it (40sec) was inaccurate == you are "splitting hairs".

"

Fruz wrote:

But anyway, this "argument" is completely pointless since people going for such speeds could run the lab within 10 mins, or 5, and would not spend 20 sec "backtracking".

How would they do that? In normal lab with first char in league? 40 seconds for a map does not require elite skills as long as you dont do (near) full clears.

It all does matter.
We are all playing a game which dominating meta is the speed meta, we are all somewhat part of it, you like it or not, period.

And no, the average isn't 40 sec, but what do you know after all ? 40 sec is an extreme, something very fallacious to take as a basis.


And FFS you are talking about 20 sec for normal => 20 sec for one character all together and say that it matters ? How far can your bad faith go actually ???
And you are comparing speed meta with a character that does not use a movement skill at lvl 35+ ???
Come on ........ :/
-> splitting hairs, and using very inconsistent "arguments".

The "backtracking" of a golden door in the normal labyrinth represents nothing, it is meaningless, pointless, not even noticeable, and nothing that you can say will change this, keep splitting hairs if you want, if you like brain masturbation that much.

"

Fruz wrote:

And no, the average isn't 40 sec,

The average of what?

"

Fruz wrote:

And FFS you are talking about 20 sec for normal => 20 sec for one character all together and say that it matters ? How far can your bad faith go actually ???

Repeating myself: Whether it matters or not depends on the player. I dont say/imply that it matters for me. Personally I dont care. The claim was "not one step of backtracking". I pointed out that this is false and you "took offense". I see no wrong in my responses to that. My impression is that you dont like the facts and that your responses show that.

"

Fruz wrote:

And you are comparing speed meta with a character that does not use a movement skill at lvl 35+ ???
Come on ........ :/
-> splitting hairs, and using very inconsistent "arguments".

I dont see the inconsistency. You are assuming that movement skill is better and that the player knows it and optimizes build etc.

"

Fruz wrote:

The "backtracking" of a golden door in the normal labyrinth represents nothing, it is meaningless, pointless, not even noticeable, and nothing that you can say will change this, keep splitting hairs if you want, if you like brain masturbation that much.

Quoting you: "It all does matter." (what you say) vs "it is meaningless, ..." (what I say)

Guess you dont like other people having other opinions and are unwilling to respect them.

You are comparing a "good" (efficient) player with a "bad" (inefficient) player to try to show that it matters when it matters not, this is the inconsistency, this is where the fallacy is.

If I compare a good player that takes less than 10 sec in normal to go through that, to a bad player that takes what ... 30 mins for a single map, what is 10 sec to 30 mins ?
Riight, but I don't pull those fallacious comparison because I don't need to, I'm just showing what kind of nonsense you are resorting to.

And screw that, that is not what respect is, I wish people would stop using that words all the time on the internet without knowing what it actually means .....
Saying that backtracking for a golden door in the normal labyrinth represents something is just ridiculous, pointing out that "not one step" is wrong or not is completely pointless, this is exactly what I've described in all those previous messages : splitting hairs, plain and simple.


But to be honest, backtracking isn't necessarily a bad thing anyway, even if it did matter ( which of course, isn't the case ), that would not make the golden door thingy bad or anything.

I'm not even sure why this thread is still alive to be honest, let's just let it sink, or let's just let the OP continue his crusade alone maybe.

"

Fruz wrote:

You are comparing a "good" (efficient) player with a "bad" (inefficient) player to try to show that it matters when it matters not, this is the inconsistency, this is where the fallacy is.

If I compare a good player that takes less than 10 sec in normal to go through that, to a bad player that takes what ... 30 mins for a single map, what is 10 sec to 30 mins ?
Riight, but I don't pull those fallacious comparison because I don't need to, I'm just showing what kind of nonsense you are resorting to.

I understand your argument but I dont agree with it. You are assuming that being able to copy and run a build which does a map in 40 secs requires a player which is very good and efficient at normal lab and can do that specific gold door backtrack in less than 10 seconds under the circumstances. The skill required to do that in 10 seconds is a lot higher than the skill required to do a map in 40secs with a top tier build. In addition to that it requires a build which can do it. Most people dont speed-optimize their builds for normal lab. Most people however do optimize their end game builds. I dont think the +30% movespeed I used were misrepresenting.

"

Fruz wrote:

And screw that, that is not what respect is, I wish people would stop using that words all the time on the internet without knowing what it actually means .....

Feel free to explain it == meaning of "respect". And the context was intended to be opinion and not person. Unfortunately my wording was ambiguous so it can be (mis)interpreted as respect for other people which I did not mean to imply.

"

Fruz wrote:

Saying that backtracking for a golden door in the normal labyrinth represents something is just ridiculous, pointing out that "not one step" is wrong or not is completely pointless, this is

Repeating your opinion again doesnt make it more right. Nor does it change that it is subjective == opinion == differs from person to person.

And now you are speaking about the "skill required" to use movement skills throught couple of rooms ? Are you actually being serious ?

People that go with very high speed build can go through the game quickly, they are min-maxing for speed, that's what they do, and it's most likely a very tiny tiny part of the population.

But, people using movement skill to go faster through the game ? That ain't just a small part.

At this point, I'm starting to assume that you are just trolling, seriously.
Trying to argue for the sake of arguing by resorting to such ridiculous "arguments" goes nowhere, feel free to do that on your own.


And I am not going to derail this thread even more about the definition of respect.

"

Fruz wrote:

And now you are speaking about the "skill required" to use movement skills throught couple of rooms ?

I see nothing wrong in my claim about doing it in 10sec vs 20sec. You trying to counter that with a generic statement (which does no justice to the context) dont change the facts. Or maybe read again my claim (and the context) and then respond properly?
Note that with a build/level/setup suitable for first normal lab in league I would have been unable to do it in 10sec. And (based on lab ladder) I am faster than the average lab-willing player in terms of lab navigation. And lab-unwilling players are probably worse at lab navigation than lab-willing ones.

"

Fruz wrote:

People that go with very high speed build can go through the game quickly, they are min-maxing for speed, that's what they do, and it's most likely a very tiny tiny part of the population.

There is a difference between build and player. I dont want to make assumptions about whether only highly skilled players make "speed meta" builds or not. Nor is it humanly possible to determine it here. And if there are only a few - that does not mean (to me) they dont matter.

"

Fruz wrote:

At this point, I'm starting to assume that you are just trolling, seriously.

Maybe read your own posts. Often you are just criticizing me (== the person). You dont appear to argue much about the topic and you dont bring many (if any) facts to the discussion.

"

Fruz wrote:

But, people using movement skill to go faster through the game ? That ain't just a small part.

Yes. And obviously my measurement was not representative in a statistical manner. It was just one layout anyway. And I dont see how/why it matters. I dont share your opinion/perspective that other people/their_opinions dont matter. Whether they are majority or minority.

And if you dont like my result feel free to make your own measurements with your own (and in your opinion) more fitting setup.