Crit vs. Non-crit Builds : Do non-crit builds need a buff?

Saying "non-crit" needs a buff a bit too broad since logically an attack with 2 less damage multipliers will obviously do less damage. Unless the noncrit attack has an extra effect or utility such as bleed or an damage mechanic increasing the base damage/attack super fast like buzzsaw builds or howa/whispering ice.

Because non-crit builds with nothing special about them other than "hurr i got RT" will lose to every other build that has something a little extra. Since even getting RT you can still use special damage mechanics and add bleed + poison to your attacks.

Removing status effects from crit literally is a pointless change and only fucks over builds that use the crit portion to actually apply status effects. Otherwise I just use it for damage to one shot monsters, it's not like apply status effects to bosses anyway.

My problem with the non-crit builds is for some reason everyone thinns balance is homogenizing everything to nearly being exactly the same shit with anything "good" outside of the norm of fucking raw base damage "broken and requires a nerf".

Also RT isn't fucking "non-crit". It's a node you choose that has a drawback that is related to crit. You can go non-crit without getting RT (like getting a little crit for elemental overload or just being across the side of the tree/using spells) via giving you 100% accuracy to trade for other damage modifiers.

ANY "buff" to "noncrit" that inherently doesn't exclude the ability to crit would be a buff to "crit" because crit is just an extension or extra damage modifiers of your attack. That would be like saying should we buff fire damage and nerf spell damage. Since fire spells aren't good enough but all other type of spells are too strong.

"

Also RT isn't fucking "non-crit". It's a node you choose that has a drawback that is related to crit. You can go non-crit without getting RT (like getting a little crit for elemental overload or just being across the side of the tree/using spells) via giving you 100% accuracy to trade for other damage modifiers.

Issue here is simple. Compare Spells to Attacks. If you don't go RT without investing into Dex you simple won't hit. You will drop to something like 75-80% chance to hit. So picking RT is basically a 25%+ damage multiplier. If you use spells however you not only don't have to use RT you can also use Controlled Destruction without any downside (because crit chance cannot drop below base). So you can use Elemental Overload, Controlled Destruction and don't need to invest into a way to ensure you hit.

So Spells are fine, they are insanely strong because they can make use of them above and even more so penetration, which is also more avaible to casters than it is to attackers, and one of the reason why many attackers go Elementalist or Inquisitor (depending if Crit or not), because you just need penetration.

So of course non-crit Attacks need a buff, a massiv one, they are basically the worst thing you can play in PoE. The absolut worst are RT-melees, because they can't even use massiv double dipping with poison (although this changes anyway).

"

Emphasy wrote:

"

Also RT isn't fucking "non-crit". It's a node you choose that has a drawback that is related to crit. You can go non-crit without getting RT (like getting a little crit for elemental overload or just being across the side of the tree/using spells) via giving you 100% accuracy to trade for other damage modifiers.

Issue here is simple. Compare Spells to Attacks. If you don't go RT without investing into Dex you simple won't hit. You will drop to something like 75-80% chance to hit. So picking RT is basically a 25%+ damage multiplier. If you use spells however you not only don't have to use RT you can also use Controlled Destruction without any downside (because crit chance cannot drop below base). So you can use Elemental Overload, Controlled Destruction and don't need to invest into a way to ensure you hit.

So Spells are fine, they are insanely strong because they can make use of them above and even more so penetration, which is also more avaible to casters than it is to attackers, and one of the reason why many attackers go Elementalist or Inquisitor (depending if Crit or not), because you just need penetration.

So of course non-crit Attacks need a buff, a massiv one, they are basically the worst thing you can play in PoE. The absolut worst are RT-melees, because they can't even use massiv double dipping with poison (although this changes anyway).

The point of that paragraph is using "RT" as noncrit is stupid because that's like using iron reflexes for "armor characters". Just because there are two mechanics in the keystone doesn't mean that's literally the face of the archetype of playstyle.

RT is shit in general because you just need 2x accuracy roll on your gear to hit 90% or higher attack accuracy anyway. This is even easier for "non-crit" on the south side of your tree when the entire part of the tree is littered with accuracy nodes, accuracy nodes baked in with other very good nodes, and accuracy nodes in efficient paths to good stuff.

The only reason why RT is even taken if that if you get 0 crit what so ever, there is 0 other ways for melee to scale their damage. Much like how if your on the opposite side of the tree there are very few mechanics outside of crit to scale your damage.

An actual good buff would be to introduce more mechanics or build types within the tree/gear so we have more labels we can attach to our builds. An example would be ele buzzsaw builds that rely on ele flat damage + auras and metric shit of attack speed to function well. Which can go crit, RT or somewhere in between.

Nope nope nope if too many nerfs we will get at once like 3.0 for example (double dipp)than more ppl may quit the game.

"

Here's a little something to think about.

Copy the code I stored here. Import it into Path of Building.

It's basically a CoC Discharge Assassin build with Bino's and Lycosidae and mediocre gear.

I have:

* 532% crit multi
* 4 Power charges
* 92.75% crit chance on Cyclone
* 92% crit chance on Discharge
* 115 points used (+1 from Alira), ~lvl 92 Asssasin
* 130k Discharge damage per Power charge
* 26k DPS Cyclone
* 10k ES
* 26k ES Leech
* Capped res, no negative Chaos res

And people think that's ok.

Hey a bit off topic, I have a question about path of building, i haven't explored path of building much, i used it a bit just to plug in some of my characters and see what damage they actually do, but when I look at the calc it seems to say that the 130k discharge is for 6 power charges, is that a mistake on path of building or what? Because I have a had too and I'd like to know their approximate damage too. The path of building average damage should be for all charges from what I roughly remember though, when I looked at my discharge tooltip.

A bit more on-topic: discharger was non-crit and his average damage stated was 26k only lol, (not sure if always on full charges for single target, maybe more like 20k discharges on single target)

Path of building code: though considerably cheaper/crappier gear.
https://pastebin.com/SY3LtVh4
You can add in stuff like vinktar and a proper spell damage weapon/shield or something. And maybe like 350 additional es and 10% more damage since incandsecent heart got buffed (gain chaos damage) and I still equipped a legacy one

I don't think Resolute Technique should have any chance base nodes behind it. The whole theme of Resolute Technique after is that "Great tacticians learn that consistency often trumps potential.".

Instead we should give a node that fits the theme.

For example, a keystone called "Battle Instinct":

For each successful attack you make, you gain better understanding of your opponent, allowing you to guide your strike with greater and greater ease.
-Gain 10% more damage of the type the target have the least resistance against for each attack that hits (counter only increase for each 'cast'). (This damage boost is 50% less effective against unique enemies) The effect ends if you have not hit the target recently, however all frenzy charges are consumed, damage buff duration is extended by 0.5 second for each charge consumed.

It have very high damage potential, but it requires you to commit to the targets. And it depends on the Target's resistance values; specific damage type can be targeted with either penetration or curses.

"

Randomzx wrote:

I don't think Resolute Technique should have any chance base nodes behind it. The whole theme of Resolute Technique after is that "Great tacticians learn that consistency often trumps potential.".

Instead we should give a node that fits the theme.

For example, a keystone called "Battle Instinct":

For each successful attack you make, you gain better understanding of your opponent, allowing you to guide your strike with greater and greater ease.
-Gain 10% more damage of the type the target have the least resistance against for each attack that hits. (This damage boost is 50% less effective against unique enemies) The effect ends if you have not hit the target recently, however all frenzy charges are consumed, damage buff duration is extended by 0.5 second for each charge consumed.

It have very high damage potential, but it requires you to commit to the targets. And it depends on the Target's resistance values; specific damage type can be targeted with either penetration or curses.

The idea of locking these things behind Resolute Technique is to provide melee buffs that only benefit non-crit builds.

An idea like yours could also be picked up in a crit build, which leaves us with the current situation addressed in the first post.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

The idea of locking these things behind Resolute Technique is to provide melee buffs that only benefit non-crit builds.

An idea like yours could also be picked up in a crit build, which leaves us with the current situation addressed in the first post.

It was already implied in my post that the node is behind resolute technique, after all the point of making a node like that was to fit the theme. Crit builds would be shooting themselves in the foot for picking the node since it would get rid of all their crits by needing to pass through Resolute Technique.

AND, If adding more multipliers for the game is a bad idea, to fit the consistency theme even more, just increase the minimum generic damage range for each attack stage, up to the maximum damage range.

"

Randomzx wrote:

"

Tsokushin wrote:

The idea of locking these things behind Resolute Technique is to provide melee buffs that only benefit non-crit builds.

An idea like yours could also be picked up in a crit build, which leaves us with the current situation addressed in the first post.

It was already implied in my post that the node is behind resolute technique, after all the point of making a node like that was to fit the theme. Crit builds would be shooting themselves in the foot for picking the node since it would get rid of all their crits by needing to pass through Resolute Technique.

AND, If adding more multipliers for the game is a bad idea, to fit the consistency theme even more, just increase the minimum generic damage range for each attack stage, up to the maximum damage range.

What's the problem with that? The entire point is to give non-crit a bit more damage, not further buff crit damage.

Stuns are based off of damage dealt, of which crit has plenty.

The thing that is hard to factor in a non-crit / RT build is opportunity cost.

If you have about 70% accuracy RT gives 40% more damage, and this is 1 point.

As for crit you need to get 100% accuracy, and 100% crit to get a 50% more multiplayer. This multiplayer however scales and for most builds can hit 300-400% more. However for some builds you can use the crit/acc/multi passives/gear to get 100+% more damage. Example: change from 400% increased phys to 900% increased phys. You also have a multiplier in attack speed that is hard to scale in a crit build.

This all makes it so if your stretched on points or have other multipliers to work on(like FB) it's best to go RT.


The only problem I have with crit is "why does crit cause elemental status aliments?", its already one of the best things to get damage, and then add on additional great effects? Just dumb in my opinion. Also anyone play non crit freeze/shock builds ... ever? but good thing they were so OP they nerfed them into uselessness(boss wise). People would play crit without them, so why keep them together like this?