Crit vs. Non-crit Builds : Do non-crit builds need a buff?

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Why modify Resolute Technique so the sole keystone that makes your build disregard Accuracy as whole is turned into one dependent of that mechanic as well?

It would be better and fairer from my point of view to just add a smaller more melee damage of 10-15%, a 15% reduced stun threshold and a 5-10% chance to gain Unholy Might for up to 3 seconds or even Fortify gain on melee hit for 1-2 seconds.

Make a new keystone that increases accuracy, gives 40% more Physical Damage for 8 seconds if you've dealt dealt a critical strike recently and you have no critical strike multiplier...

Resolute Technique should be a mechanic that gives players an option to disregard Accuracy investments while capping them on a lower damage level, and still feel useful in comparison to Crit and that new keystone + Elemental Overload.

And a separation of Crit and status ailments is an idea that would be even better if status ailments would work like stun, and capping the chance to a value less than 100% no matter the damage inflicted would be possible...

Because it would be the easiest to modify.

If it's a matter of accuracy, then the accuracy modifier can again be buffed, or Resolute Technique can remain in guaranteeing every attack never misses. However, physical damage needs an analog to Elemental Overload.

RT is pretty much only used for either axe wielders or mace wielders. Dagger users want to utilize the crit implicit and sword users have accuracy implicits. As for capping onto a lower damage level, even without Resolute Technique, non-crit builds are at a far lower damage capability than crit builds. It can still grant that your hits can't be evaded, I just didn't want to propose something game-breakingly OP or a node that says "take this or your build will be bad".

Now, the problem with your proposed buffs is that they would also benefit crit builds as well. I'm proposing an idea that specifically buffs non-crit and leaves crit untouched. However, I do think these things can be incorporated in the tree. They can be gated behind Resolute Techniques.

So, it can be set up similar to Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics:

Resolute Technique: Your Attacks cannot be Evaded. You have no Critical Strike Multiplier.

Beyond that keystone, we can set a small cluster that can add more melee buffs, including the ones you proposed and end it with another keystone as the Physical analog of Elemental Overload.

Maybe 3-4. 10-15% increased melee damage, 20% reduced stun threshold (axe+mace users want this as they do with resolute technique), Gain fortify for 2 Seconds on Hit. Then we cap it with a new keystone.

Devastating Momentum (or another cool name): Gain 20-40% more Physical Damage for 8 seconds on Critical Strike.

Does this seem like a better idea?

"

DDusk wrote:

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

Two words: double dipping

for now non crit build can exceed crit. of course you can do both at same time but it's less efficient than focused builds.

For example poison non crit build I play with a shit load of general damage multipliers the Minotaur gets maybe 2 swings off if he's lucky. Much better than say the 100% crit cospri discharger I played last season.

R u saying u cant double dip with crit? :))

in many cases you do considerably less damage with crit vs non crit because of double dipping the fun thing is that we are almost always talking about spells because fuck needing accuracy.

if you wasted say 15 - 20 pts into crit nodes that is technically 150 - 200% damage give or take of double dipping you just threw away.

this is exactly why krip build was using hidden potential .. double dip damage > every other damage scaler in the game .. so it only makes sense for builds that stack exclusivly double dipping mechanics to have the most damage.

it is also why berserker is so ridiculous

"

Tsokushin wrote:

"

RT'S dogshit.

Yeah. Due to the fact that it completely stops all crit, not even elemental melee builds pick it up because they need to make use of elemental overload.

It's also terrible because there's enough accuracy nodes and accuracy on gear to bring you up to 95% chance to hit. Most accuracy nodes also have attack speed, which is good for any attack build.

Dude
95% chance to hit is pretty hard to reach man
if u aiming for 95% then ur tree is most likely not optimal

most common places for accuracy are
rings ammulet and MAYBE helmet or gloves

i have accuracy on both rings and ammulet and helmet for one of my crit builds and chance to hit is 91%

I would like to see this "easy" 95% chance to hit method you speak of

"

DDseedFoot wrote:

"

Tsokushin wrote:

"

RT'S dogshit.

Yeah. Due to the fact that it completely stops all crit, not even elemental melee builds pick it up because they need to make use of elemental overload.

It's also terrible because there's enough accuracy nodes and accuracy on gear to bring you up to 95% chance to hit. Most accuracy nodes also have attack speed, which is good for any attack build.

Dude
95% chance to hit is pretty hard to reach man
if u aiming for 95% then ur tree is most likely not optimal

most common places for accuracy are
rings ammulet and MAYBE helmet or gloves

i have accuracy on both rings and ammulet and helmet for one of my crit builds and chance to hit is 91%

I would like to see this "easy" 95% chance to hit method you speak of

https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAUAAPndi4xKmMxmlFzAZq3xGF0872jyr2wLYcaurj5nm-RRm1gx-3_jXz_BBHloP_zoZgixqW534wHchNlHfr02ZU2-pw==

This is the base template for Templar melee for accuracy. Plug this into the offline builder if you want. Use an Ice Golem. Set to level 90. Keep in mind these calculations are assuming gear with 0 added Dex, and only a ring with only 214 accuracy, and a weapon with only 129 accuracy.

Again, this is on a Templar (lowest Dex) and no Dex from gear.

2h: If 2h, pick up Martial Experience on your way towards Marauder and Destroyer outside of Duelist.

1h: If 1h, pick up Studious Combatant outside of Scion.

Mace: Galvanic Hammer and the accuracy nodes under it. With only a ring with 214 and a 2h mace with 129 accuracy, no other accuracy stats, 89% chance to hit. This is the build I'm currently planning and intend on using. I aim to include another ring with accuracy along with gloves.

If 1h, pick up Galvanic Hammer and Studious Combatant outside of Scion Starting Area. Again, with a ring with only 214 accuracy, 90% chance to hit. Potentially more with accuracy on your weapon.

Axes: Pick up "By the Blade" and the accuracy node under it. Pick up Slaughterer outside of Marauder. Equivalent 129 accuracy weapon, same single ring, 89% chance to hit.

If 1h, equivalent 129 accuracy weapon, 90% chance to hit.

Swords: If 2h, pick up "By the Blade" again and spec into Razor's Edge outside of Marauder and the accompanying accuracy nodes. Equivalent 129 accuracy weapon, 92% chance to hit with the accuracy implicit variety.

If 1h, equivalent 129 accuracy weapon, 91% chance to hit with the accuracy implicit variety.

Again, these are all with only a combined 343 accuracy from gear, and 0 dex from anything except the tree.

Adding Weathered Hunter (on the path towards ranger starting area from duelist) adds approximately 2-3% more accuracy for all builds, more if you have a dex focus. That's easily reaching 95%. You can also pick up another accuracy bonus from dual wielding along with potentially more accuracy on the second weapon.

There's also people using Ngahmus or Molten strike, they can pick up Fury Bolts outside Duelist, boosting the projectiles from Nga+Molten strike along with 20% more accuracy.

Diminishing return on stacking crit, and stacking es

I get what u mean
what I am saying is
its not impossible to get 95%

but jumping from 91 to 95 takes considerably more investment than 0 to 90%
since ur pathing in tree will be gimped and only a handful of builds will take ur pathing

You generalized that getting 95% is a normal thing but it certainly isnt so in my opinion

90% to 95% jump is simply not worth the investment required for it

"

DDseedFoot wrote:

I get what u mean
what I am saying is
its not impossible to get 95%

but jumping from 91 to 95 takes considerably more investment than 0 to 90%
since ur pathing in tree will be gimped and only a handful of builds will take ur pathing

You generalized that getting 95% is a normal thing but it certainly isnt so in my opinion

90% to 95% jump is simply not worth the investment required for it

You can actually hit that mark easier by dropping all those accuracy nodes and picking up Poacher's mark as well.

In any case, this is going off topic. Let's discuss more about buffs to non-double dipping/poison builds.

"

Saltychipmunk wrote:

"

DDusk wrote:

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

Two words: double dipping

for now non crit build can exceed crit. of course you can do both at same time but it's less efficient than focused builds.

For example poison non crit build I play with a shit load of general damage multipliers the Minotaur gets maybe 2 swings off if he's lucky. Much better than say the 100% crit cospri discharger I played last season.

R u saying u cant double dip with crit? :))

in many cases you do considerably less damage with crit vs non crit because of double dipping the fun thing is that we are almost always talking about spells because fuck needing accuracy.

if you wasted say 15 - 20 pts into crit nodes that is technically 150 - 200% damage give or take of double dipping you just threw away.

this is exactly why krip build was using hidden potential .. double dip damage > every other damage scaler in the game .. so it only makes sense for builds that stack exclusivly double dipping mechanics to have the most damage.

it is also why berserker is so ridiculous

There are very few on-hit builds that are remotely better than a crit Version. Especially ignite which doesn't even need a high crit Chance and poison which steamrolls with an assassin. The hidden potential build was comparatively shit and Berserker is only good, because of The build in leech. It's basically deadeye just in melee. Straight forward and boring. Kripp was using hidden potential, because no one else does and he could be hipster.

One of The reasons crit is so good, is because of the subtle powercreep. Increased modifiers used to be smaller. Now they scale infinetly better on gear than on the tree or are covered by ascendencies. You can still get your 400% increased while running 300% multi at 50%. Of course excluding items like abyssus that just destroy anything.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Why modify Resolute Technique so the sole keystone that makes your build disregard Accuracy as whole is turned into one dependent of that mechanic as well?

It would be better and fairer from my point of view to just add a smaller more melee damage of 10-15%, a 15% reduced stun threshold and a 5-10% chance to gain Unholy Might for up to 3 seconds or even Fortify gain on melee hit for 1-2 seconds.

Make a new keystone that increases accuracy, gives 40% more Physical Damage for 8 seconds if you've dealt dealt a critical strike recently and you have no critical strike multiplier...

Resolute Technique should be a mechanic that gives players an option to disregard Accuracy investments while capping them on a lower damage level, and still feel useful in comparison to Crit and that new keystone + Elemental Overload.

And a separation of Crit and status ailments is an idea that would be even better if status ailments would work like stun, and capping the chance to a value less than 100% no matter the damage inflicted would be possible...

Because it would be the easiest to modify.

If it's a matter of accuracy, then the accuracy modifier can again be buffed, or Resolute Technique can remain in guaranteeing every attack never misses. However, physical damage needs an analog to Elemental Overload.

RT is pretty much only used for either axe wielders or mace wielders. Dagger users want to utilize the crit implicit and sword users have accuracy implicits. As for capping onto a lower damage level, even without Resolute Technique, non-crit builds are at a far lower damage capability than crit builds. It can still grant that your hits can't be evaded, I just didn't want to propose something game-breakingly OP or a node that says "take this or your build will be bad".

Now, the problem with your proposed buffs is that they would also benefit crit builds as well. I'm proposing an idea that specifically buffs non-crit and leaves crit untouched. However, I do think these things can be incorporated in the tree. They can be gated behind Resolute Techniques.

So, it can be set up similar to Acrobatics and Phase Acrobatics:

Resolute Technique: Your Attacks cannot be Evaded. You have no Critical Strike Multiplier.

Beyond that keystone, we can set a small cluster that can add more melee buffs, including the ones you proposed and end it with another keystone as the Physical analog of Elemental Overload.

Maybe 3-4. 10-15% increased melee damage, 20% reduced stun threshold (axe+mace users want this as they do with resolute technique), Gain fortify for 2 Seconds on Hit. Then we cap it with a new keystone.

Devastating Momentum (or another cool name): Gain 20-40% more Physical Damage for 8 seconds on Critical Strike.

Does this seem like a better idea?

It would be perfect, as that was the layout proposed in another thread, those 3 new bonuses were new notables behind RT, and to cap them with a keystone of a greater power wasn't suggested then...

Of course this keystone actually transforms every RT build in a one relying on Critical Chance to activate the bonus so instead I would prefer a fixed 5% chance to gain it (with all those Critical Chance increases you could reach easily more than 30%) - either being Unholy Might or a cool 20-40% more damage multiplier...

I still feel that Resolute Technique should make you disregard Accuracy, Critical Chance and Critical Multiplier nodes around the tree as it does at the moment...