The Balance Team needs a shake-up

In my humble opinion, the current balance team needs a shake-up of some sort. Either someone needs to go, or there needs to be someone new put in charge of balance with the current existing team. I think the current team's 'history' has quite adequately demonstrated that they have no semblance of balancing to any reliable degree, at least to where the game is actually enjoyable. Whether this is because Chris' vision is getting in the way, or the balance team just blatantly misses obvious broken things, I don't know. However, it's pretty obvious that there needs to be a serious shake-up of how the game is balanced, as right now you've got a moving target meta. Examples of ridiculously bad balancing going back to open beta/closed beta


1) Introduction of Charge Rhoas which basically wiped out the entire top 30 of HC on introduction. Granted this was early on in CB, but it was pretty blatant that they weren't tested at all. I can give GGG a free pass here, it was early on in development but this is one of many examples.

2) Reflect. This has been a significant issue for a very long time now, and it's still a nuisance for most builds. It used to be awful, being 100% reflect and all that jazz. It's bearable now that it is no longer an aura, but it's mere presence breaks alot of fun builds. And before saying it's a DPS check, players are still doing idiotic amounts of DPS as long as they don't do burst damage.

3) The yo yo style of balancing of skills, ranging from EK, Incinerate, Fire Trap, Flameblast, Freezing Pulse, Ground Slam, etc; essentially the second a skill becomes flavor of the month and sees too much usage, GGG obliterates the skill into the ground, particularly if it's a 'cost effective' skill. See what happened to Incinerate as a primary example, but other spells too like Fire Trap Burn Prolif, EK, etc.

4) The absurd burst damage with literally no time to counter play or react. I don't think we have to go over this as many players who have played into red maps already know, but it's gotten to the point where it's ridiculous now. It's like GGG's only response to increasing the power level of players is to increase the amount of damage mobs do. This leads me into my next example as the two are somewhat linked.

5) The countless examples of leagues with way overtuned content that was clearly NOT tested at all. Ranging from buggy interactions with how certain bosses worked, the amount of damage they do, among various other things. Frostwalls one shotting people, Igna Phoenix wiping out entire parties, Forsaken Master missions that just instant killed people, Beyond Tornado Shot Mobs, new Rogue Exiles one shotting people, way overtuned Malachai, Invasion league bosses in general, etc. etc.

6) The Knee Jerk reactions of the balance team to things they deem outside the vision of the game or to be far too broken. Many a build has suffered the wrath of the balance team just because the build was highly publicized. Cyclone for example was nerfed fairly hard despite not being the best skill in the game at the time. Remember that hilarious Mirror Arrow build? Or CWDT AFK build? And so many others? Or how about this league itself with taunt and chieftan totems? Oh, or how about the various exp changes to maps because Chris was abit salty that Havoc and Etup (two excellent players who no life and can play the economy well) reached level 100 in record times? Like seriously, what the, fuck.



There are countless of other examples that I haven't even bothered to post about since playing in CB, but the point is made. It's honestly and absolutely ridiculous that the same silly overtunes and mistakes that happened during the CB are STILL occurring now. Many people enjoy this game DESPITE the overtuned content, despite the moving target meta, despite knee jerk reactions, and ham fisted balance changes, etc. which is a testament to how good other parts of the game are. However, it is clear based on recent statements and balance changes, that the current balance team is clearly way out of touch with the game. And I'm not saying they are bad people, but clearly there's serious fucking issues when it seems like the fundamentals of game balancing aren't even being followed. It's time that Chris and the rest of the team really take a hard look at their current balance team, because they haven't been getting the job done for years now.

WTB GAME BALANCE MANIFESTO POST

Offer: Supporter packs.

I am amazed sometimes by balance teams or what they say.
The problem in POE is that they dont like to change old stuff "because creating new stuff takes as long as changing old one, so we rather create new one" or so.

They MUST change old stuff to keep the game healthy even if it cost resources. They MUST work on speeding up the process of creation and change. Find new methods to do it.
I see they are unable to predict outcome on paper with is slowing down the process insanly.
From what they say on podcast its mostly "we put lots of iterations of stuff so people test it and give feedback".
They MUST be able to predict outcome on paper with some accuracy to the possible results. Testing need to only pinpoint the numbers even more or find bugs or "how it feels".

So on the end, balance team take lot of time and they still fail to balance stuff anyway, espeialy when it comes to skills.

Chris need to give them goals to reach like for example:
- creation/change process time of skill need to last maximum x weeks or x hours of worktime
- create method that allow for such times and quarantee that the quality is good
- give method to check if the quality is reached (so you can measure the results and compare to goals).

Currently I dont think that the balance team work in such way - for me as a outsider it looks like chaos.

Unfortunately I 100% agree. Designing and balancing an arpg just isn't in their wheelhouse.

it is funny that you havent once touched the aspect of 'player has too much power' - but all you do is defend the easy way and ask for an easy way

balance is a 'balance of power' not 'players have all the power'

#5 and #6 are the ones that stick out the most to me.

Some of the biggest balance criticisms I have indicate not merely inadequate balance-related forethought but also inadequate testing.

Test.

Test.

Test.

Test gameplay. Test consequences. Don't just test that it works and doesn't crash the game.

Test.

Test.

Please test things, GGG. Before you release them.

BEFORE YOU RELEASE THEM.

Not after. BEFORE.

Please?

"

sidtherat wrote:

it is funny that you havent once touched the aspect of 'player has too much power' - but all you do is defend the easy way and ask for an easy way

balance is a 'balance of power' not 'players have all the power'

It's pure subjective feedback, since objectively they do a "good" job.

don't misinterpret that as "there are no issue's", but in therms of keeping the game alive and funding the project so it can continue to exist allowing future balance.

Balance is off-point, but not to a degree that the game is unplayable, which would constitute a failed balance team.

Considering the many factors that are "The Balance" in PoE, there not bad.

And that's coming from somebody that has found flaws in "the balance" pretty continuously in every content/patch update released so far.

Peace,

-Boem-

Every game has threads like this. It's quite astounding.

"

Boem wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

it is funny that you havent once touched the aspect of 'player has too much power' - but all you do is defend the easy way and ask for an easy way

balance is a 'balance of power' not 'players have all the power'

It's pure subjective feedback, since objectively they do a "good" job.

don't misinterpret that as "there are no issue's", but in therms of keeping the game alive and funding the project so it can continue to exist allowing future balance.

Balance is off-point, but not to a degree that the game is unplayable, which would constitute a failed balance team.

Considering the many factors that are "The Balance" in PoE, there not bad.

And that's coming from somebody that has found flaws in "the balance" pretty continuously in every content/patch update released so far.

sure, game makes money. selling cheap fast food also makes money. but it is difficult to recommend going there for a lunch. same with POE, i cannot force myself to recommend this game to anyone. there are ethical issues (mounting ones) and there are gameplay issues

- significant part of the skills available in the game is BY DESIGN crap. if one selects this skill while leveling there is NO CHANCE he will be successful

loosing on the character selection screen is a first sign of a failed balance/game design. currently in POE you CAN make your character rubbish even before loading the game

- when some - seemingly equivalent - mechanics/playstyles/archetypes are just BETTER in every f. way then - again - you have a failed design. crit/non-crit is the prime example. elemental melee (only fast weapons matter) is more niche one. current life/ES disaster.

- end-game content is unreachable by certain characters/classes/concepts. im not talking about immunities - these can be pruteforced with time. given average skill and average gear killing shaper with 1h/shield mace RT build is impossible. not difficult but simply impossible. it is again fail at the character creation screen - some builds will simply never be able to reach and complete the game. regardless of how these are built. this is utter balance failure.

- power gap between normal builds (well made and thought out 'generic' builds - mostly melee) and 'meta' builds is beyond insanity. no serious game can afford this kind of design. it is unsustainable and attracts power-junkies and fail-lifes that require some for of success and this game gives them success on silver platter

- non-existing communication between various guys doing this part of the game. uniques with WILD power discrepancies, uniques with horrid stats, skills that even kids know are broken.. who leads this team? because it doesnt look like a team effort

- push for 'new instead of fixed old'. this snake has eaten its tail and is now happilly chewing of his own head..

if today one was to do a speed run to shaper or 100 he would have like 4 builds total to do it. because these few builds have a power rating of 5000 while others hover around 100.

imagine this: you brother/sister/spouse (someone you know and like, someone you want to have fun with the game and experience it all without your constnt supervision) asks you for tips:
would you recommend playing 1h RT melee? or melee at all? or non-crit bow? or any non-meta build? because i sure wouldnt. id start with a long list of stuff you should not touch ever and a very short list of stuff that works stupidly well.

game diveristy


soem might say 'but how does this affect your gameplay'.. this oneliner makes me laugh each time it happens.

"

sidtherat wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

it is funny that you havent once touched the aspect of 'player has too much power' - but all you do is defend the easy way and ask for an easy way

balance is a 'balance of power' not 'players have all the power'

It's pure subjective feedback, since objectively they do a "good" job.

don't misinterpret that as "there are no issue's", but in therms of keeping the game alive and funding the project so it can continue to exist allowing future balance.

Balance is off-point, but not to a degree that the game is unplayable, which would constitute a failed balance team.

Considering the many factors that are "The Balance" in PoE, there not bad.

And that's coming from somebody that has found flaws in "the balance" pretty continuously in every content/patch update released so far.

sure, game makes money. selling cheap fast food also makes money. but it is difficult to recommend going there for a lunch. same with POE, i cannot force myself to recommend this game to anyone. there are ethical issues (mounting ones) and there are gameplay issues

- significant part of the skills available in the game is BY DESIGN crap. if one selects this skill while leveling there is NO CHANCE he will be successful

loosing on the character selection screen is a first sign of a failed balance/game design. currently in POE you CAN make your character rubbish even before loading the game

- when some - seemingly equivalent - mechanics/playstyles/archetypes are just BETTER in every f. way then - again - you have a failed design. crit/non-crit is the prime example. elemental melee (only fast weapons matter) is more niche one. current life/ES disaster.

- end-game content is unreachable by certain characters/classes/concepts. im not talking about immunities - these can be pruteforced with time. given average skill and average gear killing shaper with 1h/shield mace RT build is impossible. not difficult but simply impossible. it is again fail at the character creation screen - some builds will simply never be able to reach and complete the game. regardless of how these are built. this is utter balance failure.

- power gap between normal builds (well made and thought out 'generic' builds - mostly melee) and 'meta' builds is beyond insanity. no serious game can afford this kind of design. it is unsustainable and attracts power-junkies and fail-lifes that require some for of success and this game gives them success on silver platter

- non-existing communication between various guys doing this part of the game. uniques with WILD power discrepancies, uniques with horrid stats, skills that even kids know are broken.. who leads this team? because it doesnt look like a team effort

- push for 'new instead of fixed old'. this snake has eaten its tail and is now happilly chewing of his own head..

if today one was to do a speed run to shaper or 100 he would have like 4 builds total to do it. because these few builds have a power rating of 5000 while others hover around 100.

imagine this: you brother/sister/spouse (someone you know and like, someone you want to have fun with the game and experience it all without your constnt supervision) asks you for tips:
would you recommend playing 1h RT melee? or melee at all? or non-crit bow? or any non-meta build? because i sure wouldnt. id start with a long list of stuff you should not touch ever and a very short list of stuff that works stupidly well.

game diveristy


soem might say 'but how does this affect your gameplay'.. this oneliner makes me laugh each time it happens.

Well said, unfortunately GGG doesn't seem to care enough to implement the tough decisions in a timely manner, so you have to hope until you lose every drop of it and still don't feel progress regarding the semblance of balance...