End game changes mega discussion thread/questionnare.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Not really a big endgame player, but I had this thought many times (it may be trivial, sorry if I sound dumb):

We seek two things in an area: engagament (difficulty, fun) and rewards (experience, Ascendancy points, items), and this is restricted by the cost of playing the area (orbs used, time consumed, and the expected experience loss because of the risk of death).

GGG has tried to push many times Merciless Act IV as an alternate endgame but they have failed because the area doesn't have enough difficulty even if it can be rewarding enough (via divination cards or whatever). That's the reason Merciless Labyrinth feels way crapier than Uber Labyrinth.

Red maps have big rewards (experience and items) but the cost in time, orbs and risk makes it not worth it compared to some Yellow Maps.

I don't think that's trivial. While the game stays engaging if you enjoy your build, I think a lot of the end-game complaints fall into the latter category. They stop feeling rewarded around level 90. And the difference in rewards between a T7 map and a T15 map (after the first week when supply meets demand for a lot of the bases) aren't pronounced enough. The difference between a 3 mod rare map of 72% isn't much less rewarding than a 7 prop 117%. And you might even be better off running 2 30% blue maps in that time period.

I agree that well rolled high maps aren't worth what you put into them via currency and risk to your character dying.

Endgame right now is decorating your hideout until u get featured by GGG

endgame for me is places, where you can grind Crazy OP gear in very good gear with correct build.
But there is no crazy OP gear/sets in this game! There is nothing on t12-15 maps that you can't get on t8 map, so only reason to play red maps bit more EXP- it's not enough for me. Even uber Atziri- Aquity is good but not nessesary, Axe is good but rare mirrored is better rest of loot is crap!
I think it's time for new row of OP uniques or even Sets.

Endgame is 68-82, since that's where normal maps start and stop.

At least 1 map dropped on a given map run SHOULD be capable of giving tangible XP returns when run without crafting. Simple, no?

Focused maps could be good.

No, we don't need a map system, and if we're going to have one, I'd much rather it resemble Torchlight 2's than Diablo 3's. The current one and Labyrinth are both way too vulnerable to server/network instability.

Make races as real-world-time independent as possible so people with jobs have a fair shot. Run events on a per-week basis, always including a weekend, or run them exclusively over entire round-world weekends.

PvP is currently a joke and needs serious work it's not going to get to make it work. The first and most important things they could do is make premade-only sub-leagues - ones where only characters that are PvP-only, have NOTHING from Labyrinth, and have no items beyond the ones the build comes with can compete. Both duel and arena. I find PvPvE even less compelling than proper PvP would be, and as such an even BIGGER waste of resources. Cutthroat in particular will never, ever work well. Ever. Not even if PoE is still around in 2116. If they can't even make a working premade PvP, open Cutthroat will always be even worse.

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raics wrote:

Ok, on those subtopics...

Maps
If we're talking about quick fixes, one-way map randomization would probably be easiest, if a map of certain level drops it can be any map up to that level, so you'd be able to get a T15 tropical island but not a T1 coloseum, your available map roster would increase as you go up the tiers instead of shrinking like now.

I know the idea (or its variants) are really popular these days. Personally I like the fact that map layouts have a locked tier.

There are 2 major problems if you want to implement such a system:

1) Everyone will run T15, T14, T13 Tropical Islands/Strands/... and nothing else. No point in running T15 Core when you have T15 Tropical Islands available. And no point in running a T9 Tropical when you have T15 Tropical Islands. Given the current circumstances, the only map that people will run, will be the map with least resistance that gives the most xp. Looks very boring on paper.

2) The entire npc vendor system where you can sell 3 identical maps for a map of a higher tier, needs to be completely revised.

I say keep maps the same. Revert back before xp nerf and have a 5% instead of a 10% xp loss after lvl 90.

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Reinhart wrote:

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raics wrote:

Ok, on those subtopics...

Maps
If we're talking about quick fixes, one-way map randomization would probably be easiest, if a map of certain level drops it can be any map up to that level, so you'd be able to get a T15 tropical island but not a T1 coloseum, your available map roster would increase as you go up the tiers instead of shrinking like now.

I know the idea (or its variants) are really popular these days. Personally I like the fact that map layouts have a locked tier.

There are 2 major problems if you want to implement such a system:

1) Everyone will run T15, T14, T13 Tropical Islands/Strands/... and nothing else. No point in running T15 Core when you have T15 Tropical Islands available. And no point in running a T9 Tropical when you have T15 Tropical Islands. Given the current circumstances, the only map that people will run, will be the map with least resistance that gives the most xp. Looks very boring on paper.

2) The entire npc vendor system where you can sell 3 identical maps for a map of a higher tier, needs to be completely revised.

1) Sure, everyone will want to do it, but when the chance for your favorite map is 1/80 it won't happen often, certainly less often than 1/5 chance of getting a Gorge in T9. With how scarce high tier drops are you will hardly be able to play favorites, that's why it's very important for all layout to be at least serviceable before something like that is implemented.

2) Isn't a must, it could just give you a random map and show it in vendor window as a blank slate, like it shows a present box for 5 uniques prophecy.

i wish they could somehow randomize map bosses.

randomization of the environment used to be one of the main features of the game, kind of sad they have more or less given up on it (except labyrinth) as it causes substantial costs to maintain and bugfix.

I've had enough of doing act 1-4 over and over again when I die only to reach map tier.
Pretty sure there are many ppl that fed up with this too

Its a good thread so it would seem rude not to


what is your definition of end game?

I think your definition was the correct one. the devs call maps endgame maps because thats what they are, they start at 68. farming docks, piety, dom, dried lake etc are endgame activities the community does a lot of historically. The lab/docks, in my mind, is the start of endgame.

I feel like thats an arpg view on endgame. D3 tried to come in with an mmo take of reach max level then you grind endgame, found out it wasnt so great for an arpg and then put in paragon levels because they realised they needed an impossibly long level grind to maintain peoples need for xp gains as motivation while playing endgame.


Is it too much to ask that EVERY map be viable at end game? If yes, what percentage of maps should be viable to run at end game?

Unsure of definition of viable in this instance. If we are saying 'should a lvl99 char get decent xp from all maps" then no, I think they should be forced into rare, harsh maps.


Should maps be 'for' something specific? Should the end game in general be segregated into 'activity A is for gaining X, activity B is for improving Y, etc etc'?

emmmmm, maybe. I feel like they tend to become about something right? Maps seem to be designed around loot and then theyve become pretty much 99% about xp. I dunno if its smart to pin something down too early if you dont need to or to be afraid to allow it to change over time.

Personally I would just make what feels fun and needed and then just see what ppl do with it, go from there, make adjustments. But certainly balance it towards a goal to start with and maybe slightly away from the functions that are working well elsewhere.


- Do we need a map system at all?

yeah I think so. Its a great system so why ditch it when you can build on and parallel to it.


- Do we have enough to do at end game? What do we currently have? Which order would you prioritize these in if you were in Chris' shoes?


Im not sure we do have enough to do. I feel like all the stuff is essentially there, mobs, bosses, crafting, looting, xp etc. In terms of playable content I think Id just like more formats to suit different moods. If there was only 1 tile set in the game it would get tired so fast, what can seem like somewhat superficial or trivial differences can go a long way.



What could they change about race seasons that would make you more enthusiastic about participation?

I like racing, i like the changes they made in the last few seasons. Just more of that tbh. I like the custom races like descent the most, Id like to see more along those lines. The main quest ones are cool but I prefer them when they have these mods like the headhunter type one, was it soulthirst? I forget.

Im not a real race pro tho, I dont know their concerns but I think it should be important that what those guys want is also there to be found, because the more fun racing gets the more we play it, we are going to be in their shoes saying the same things eventually.

Personally in both racing and the lab I dont rly like too much rng, I like fixed seed type stuff. Trap rng in the lab in regards to racing it for example is mega frustrating and leads to a lot of wasted time.




PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER

What does it mean, to you, to have everything you know about the end game of PoE changed in 2.4?[/quote]

Im never going to be the pvp sort I think.


Ill try and tackle that crafting and league question in a gigantic post by itself.