End game changes mega discussion thread/questionnare.

"the 2.4.0 release will drastically change everything you know about the end-game. It contains the upcoming system that has me the most excited."

-Chris Wilson, Dev Q&A, July 4 2016

Lets think about what this really means, and talk about what we hope it means in detail. What I mean by 'in detail' is that we go beyond 'lul Gorge runs boring, Plateau spam bad'. Let's consider all facets of end game and come up with some worthy talking points that might spark something that can affect what GGG is doing in 2.4 (hopefully it's not too late). End game is more than just maps, and first, we should define 'end-game'. I've ended every bullet point - xxx - with a bolded question, so that's the questionnaire aspect.

Discussion can be on anything. But please don't go crazy with expository on trade, the lab, or level 100 it's all been said before, and detailed feedback on any one of these subjects deserves its own thread in the Feedback forum. Try to keep discussion focused on how it interacts with the END GAME experience, and the other variables listed as headers. If your opinion on, say, the Labyrinth for example, is, "the lab sucks, I never do it, so it doesn't count as end game" that's fine! But please leave it at that and don't list the 79 reasons you don't like it.

With that said I'm neither your mom nor your forum moderator so I can't stop you, just thought I'd ask nicely :/



END GAME

- What level floor constitutes end game? Maps are end game, but you can start mapping in the low 60s. Is that end game? Some people only play their characters to level 83-87, others don't think the end game even starts until level 88+. We likely will need to use a broad definition of end game to incorporate as many play experiences as is reasonable. I'll start by cautiously saying that end game is any activity that only a character who has unlocked the map device can do.

This doesn't include players who race the Normal and Cruel labs, or players who only play for race seasons, but I'm not sure how big those populations are, respectively. If anyone has another good definition, let's hear it - what is your definition of end game?

MAPS

- Real choice versus illusion of choice: How much choice to we really have when it comes to what maps we run? For a level 80 character, the world of maps is truly their oyster. Tier 1 maps still yield over 50% of their experience, and they can join a T13 map and be at the content's level. They can run nearly any map in the game with little to no penalties. As has been discussed thoroughly, this rapidly changes as you level from 80.

It's fair to question whether we have enough real choice and diversity when it comes to mapping post level 88 (I picked this because the 50% penalty cut-off is at T9, right in the middle of the mid tier yellow maps). Is it too much to ask that EVERY map be viable at end game? If yes, what percentage of maps should be viable to run at end game?

- Maps with a focus: Where some maps, by virtue of layout and pack size would be 'for' getting exp, while other maps would be focused on other things, like item quantity (maintaining your map pool) or item rarity (item farming, wealth generation). We kind of already have this in prototype via the lab. Where the uber lab is for farming wealth, and maps are for experience. Should maps be 'for' something specific? Should the end game in general be segregated into 'activity A is for gaining X, activity B is for improving Y, etc etc'?

- Do we need a map system at all? Chris did say that 2.4 would change EVERYTHING WE KNOW about end game. Maps are part of everything (of course, so is everything else). Could GGG be scrapping the map system? Should they?

GOALS / ACTIVITIES

- Do we have enough to do at end game? What do we currently have? Which order would you prioritize these in if you were in Chris' shoes?

Accumulate wealth. Ok, pretty standard.
Level to 100. This has been talked about a lot, no need to rehash here.
Improve/perfect a character. Hunt for the 'perfect' mirror worthy item.
Beat all PvE content. Merc Malachai, Uber Lab, Core/Colosseum.
Race to 100 in a league, 40/40 league challenges, win a demigods or 1000 point prize in Race Season.
High level PvP.

RACING

- What is the state of race seasons? I'm not sure how often I'd like to see them run. When a race season overlaps with a challenge league, which always necessarily overlap with anything you might be interested in doing in std/HC, are we being pulled in too many directions? Or are the players who like these things different enough that these pulls aren't really a thing? What could they change about race seasons that would make you more enthusiastic about participation?

*I'm including race seasons even though it doesn't fit my starting definition of 'end game' superficially. I believe the majority of participants in race seasons have unlocked the map device many times over in their past, and it gives players a reason to log into PoE when they may otherwise be burning out on a challenge league or a standard character.

- There is also a race of sorts in challenge leagues. First to get to the 12/24/36/40 tiers. First to level 100. First Atziri/Uber Atziri. Basically the first to do the various other end game activities we have. I wonder if they could incorporate more and better racing within the challenge leagues. I rather liked the 2 week flashbacks they ran during Perandus, and would like to see them start sooner in the league, right around the midpoint (which would be NOW for Prophecy). What could they change about challenge leagues that would make you more enthusiastic about participation and/or retention?

CRAFTING

- Not something I participate in as an end game activity, so I wont add any commentary and will instead just ask questions.

Is end game crafting through alt > regal or chaos spam satisfying?
Is master crafting satisfying?
How does crafting compare to playing in maps and trying to find an item similar to the one you're trying to craft? Or trading for it?

WEALTH ACCUMULATION

- Seems ok to me, if a bit slow at times. I know some people don't see this as an end game activity and spend most of their time 'poor', or having used most of their materiel, and spend it as soon as they get it on crafting items. Others seem to like building up a bank. Any comments or concerns about currency?

PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER

- Cutthroat races added to the upcoming Medallion Race Season. No other support for PvP from what I've seen and read. Chris said on a podcast months ago that they would be exploring PvPvE, as they think ARPGs are no longer suited to satisfying the PvP urges of gamers since MOBAs and FPSs do this very well already. An example of this would be Labyrinth leaderboards, which pit you as a player to get a better time than another player (PvP) at an environmental objective (vE) Any comments, concerns, or clever ideas for PvPvE?

In closing,

Let me know if I've missed anything major. Remember that PoE doesn't have to fill every minute of our entertainment void, and that it's ok to do other things from time to time. PoE can't be everything to everyone. But with that said, we are here because we'd like PoE to be the best game it can be, so, the floor is yours. Answer a question or two (or all!), or talk about your highest hopes for what the quote at the top of the page means. What does it mean, to you, to have everything you know about the end game of PoE changed in 2.4?

Let me just say this was a really well structured post, and I probably along with many others really appreciate it!

I am on mobile so I won't make the message too long... hopefully to come back later and add some thoughts on things. I actually realized the other day that I am actually pretty mentally exhausted from basically leadinga filibuster against the XP Penalty, so I will let the others discuss what they want without seeing me bitching.

/out

:P

"End game" has always meant to me what some people do where other people would have simply quit. You can imagine a person playing PoE simply quitting after beating Normal Difficulty, so in some sense of the word, both Cruel and Merciless are somewhat "End Game". The distinction is that the "Story" doesn't include mapping. So if you're only interested in that, mapping is seen as an option.

In this use, Chris obviously refers to mapping and having a major change to that, or at least an alternative to it.

I have hope, but no hype.

To me end game is when you stop progressing through the story(most linear games). Since this is an ARPG, I consider end game to be end progression through the story. Once you complete the last mission in Merc act4, that's where end game begins.

After that point, this is where playing begins for me. I just recently started back up in this league last week. I just hit level 83 on my ranger(1st character). I usually hit a wall(either currency or gear) to progress much farther into the 80's. So I start a new character with all the low level uniques I didn't have on the 1st run through.

here is where I farm on my 1st character to provide gear for the lower level character. I start to accumulate wealth and start selling items as I come across them. I rinse and repeat till I have all the builds I want to complete/theory craft new builds(wealth dependent) or the league ends.

I'd have to think about all your questions later to reply. SO, I'll prolly update this later.

To be fair to Chris, "changing everything you know about" something doesn't really mean that they have to scrap the entire system and start over. They could keep maps but give players a way to select Tier independently of which map they select and that would qualify as "changing everything you know about" it.

"

Let me just say this was a really well structured post, and I probably along with many others really appreciate it!

I am on mobile so I won't make the message too long... hopefully to come back later and add some thoughts on things. I actually realized the other day that I am actually pretty mentally exhausted from basically leadinga filibuster against the XP Penalty, so I will let the others discuss what they want without seeing me bitching.

/out

:P

Look forward to it - and this was the kind of restraint I was hoping for when it came to 'bitching', thank you. I'm (I think) on your side in thinking that making 100 harder to achieve is a bad thing. But since I've never tried it before, and with the announcement of changes coming in 2.4, I've declined to weigh in on the subject. I can't imagine end game changes coming and xp/leveling not being affected either directly or indirectly.

In fact, it's possible that the changes that accompanied Prophecy might have been forward thinking; anticipatory toward the system coming in 2.4, right? Overall I think it's a good thing to have a goal in the game that is hard to achieve. Something that both takes a VERY long time to achieve, and isn't as easy as just putting in the time (you still have to have a character that rarely, if ever dies). Should level 100 be the Unicorn? Unless we get more things to do at end game, it does seem like the most logical candidate.

With that said, I do empathise with anyone level 94-98 before the changes. Poor souls.

"

Shagsbeard wrote:

I have hope, but no hype.

That could characterize the current state of American politics as well. I'm in the minority (I think) of those players who has both hope AND hype for 2.4.

Ok, on those subtopics...

Endgame
Indeed, endgame may mean different things for different players but the way I see it the most universal definition would be 'any activity you do when you stop your campaign progress for an extended period of time'. So, if you have a dedicated low level PvP char you're playing endgame with him, very few activities don't fit in the definition so I suppose it's good enough.

Maps
The map choice is pretty good until mid 80s if you don't feel the need to be uber efficient, and if you do I suppose one map will always be a hair above others. So, the situation up to level 80 doesn't need much fixing, however, later on map selection starts to shrink rapidly and, feels very cramped and the content gets more repetitive than it has the right to be. If we're talking about quick fixes, one-way map randomization would probably be easiest, if a map of certain level drops it can be any map up to that level, so you'd be able to get a T15 tropical island but not a T1 coloseum, your available map roster would increase as you go up the tiers instead of shrinking like now.
On map viability, I don't think all should be equally good or even nearly so, but I don't think we should have a 'major pain in the butt' tier either, currently we have a full -2 to +2 scale going PITA-bad-soso-good-best, and I think it should go only 0 to +2, enough variety there.
And about specialized maps, I don't really like the idea of dedicated maps as that can reduce the desirable map pool further but I wouldn't be against being able to roll or craft maps for a specific role, current mods are too universal as something like pack size is good for everything and bad mods are also generally bad instead of bad for items or bad for XP.

Goals
I don't think we have enough if we look at it on 'per character' basis, if your build isn't suited for PvP or farming Uber it will never be able to do it no matter what you do to it so it isn't a goal. There simply isn't enough goals that can accommodate different builds and player types and a general lack of temporary goals that other online games often have, like dungeons only open under specific conditions, survival modes and whatnot.
We saw in leagues like Tempest that players generally respond well to that type of content and it leads to greater community investment. There are things that could be done, kill a certain enemy in next x minutes, find a certain item, being able to gain XP in PvP... There are tons of ways to give the game more things to do, however I'm afraid the league model screws it all up again as they're probably keeping all the good ideas for future leagues.
One thing they could do is something Chris mentioned in a podcast, and that is introduce league mod weeks in perma.

Races
I've only raced sometimes, not enough by far to provide good feedback on it. Not even sure it's possible to do something that would make me participate more, it's just too different from my regular lackadaisy game pace, I find no enjoyment in rushing and you can't fix that and still call it a race.

Crafting
Now, this is something I do in decent amount, because I'm an idiot and that's saying everything about how efficient it is.
- Chaos spamming isn't satisfying in the least, however regaling works better. You get a good blue item, evaluate the odds on getting something decent and then decide to regal it or not, it does require some amount of player input besides pressing a button.
- If the role of Master crafting is just to push those 'almost there' items to usable state then it works fine. However, some of their mods clearly suggest they're supposed to do more, which they aren't doing, or at least not enough. There are easy ways to improve them, like making signature mods an implicit as crafting on them currently isn't really feasible except in very few cases. Also, most metamods are poorly balanced and poorly priced, for example I think Elreon's multimod should be split between all masters and priced differently for gloves or jewelry than for weapons. In short, it's a good system that got poorly implemented, like most things in PoE.
- As for the economy aspect, crafting is a straight loss most of the time, buying a similar item is almost always cheaper, sometimes by order of magnitude.

Wealth Accumulation
I don't really mind this part, when I set my sights on doing something it usually turns out manageable in a reasonable amount of time. Maybe even too fast lately as most of the items got very cheap.

PvP
I've been doing some PvP over the years and it has always been fairly broken, however Ascendancy pushed it over the edge, it's pretty much unusable. Making a good PvP char takes a lot of time and effort so it's by nature a perma league activity and permas are a balance abomination. I don't think it can ever be actually good, it just isn't possible in a game that is open like this, too much factors to consider, too much dev time would have to be spent on maintaining it in working order. So, it's pretty much abandonware, I suppose they could do a few rough numerical balance passes to make it a bit less broken but that's it.
As for other kinds of PvP, vE or whatnot, it's pretty much the same thing, as long as the game scales the way it does you will either run the broken setup optimized for challenge X or eternally suck, it's hard to find that kind of thing fun.

And for the closing word - whenever they go for big changes my backside starts to ich, if it doesn't get any worse than it already is I'll be a happy camper.

I just want rifts

1. a new way to compete
2. a bone for casuals like me who play std with years of GG shit and can test how far i can get
3. a reason to level to 100. end game now can be done at 85 with many toons and right gear

and fuck enchanting - no reason what so ever

4. bring me to 4, a reason to min/max - difficulty is unlimited so every point counts.

5. No gating - difficulty is the gate

6. encourage party play - if you know anything about D3 end game is all about 3 support +1 meta to get anywhere. Yes they are nerfing it but still any system from original D3 to rifts which has insane difficulty encourages a party play

this game party play is disincentivized for most part.

What for? You one shot everything and party slows you down! Oh a little MF you say. BFD anyone at end game makes all money trading anyway. Fuck what you find not to mention solo speed beats it anyway if you're there for MF. Which is why all lab or uber runners solo anyway

What is your definition of end game?
End game to me is any time you spend grinding after you've completed all of the goals specified in the game. After you've done the side quests and collected Deshret's soul, etc. It is the point at which you start mapping and going back to previous zones to farm divination cards or anything that doesn't have a guaranteed reward to it because you have run out of guaranteed rewards. Grinding = endgame be it dried lake or gorge rotas or tidal island runs or getting perfect enchants on your items in uber lab.

What percentage of maps should be viable to run at end game?
I think red maps should be the end goal. The problem is that there are only 3 tier 15 maps while there are 6 different layouts for tier 7 and 8 different layouts for tier 1. Keep the layouts the same for some of the maps but increase the tier that they spawn in and increase their drop rate a bit more so that they can be sustainable or close to it at least. How would things change if springs map was a tier 13 or 14, what if precinct was a tier 12 or 13, etc? If some of the maps with linear layouts were part of the higher tier then people would be more inclined to run those maps and take those risks. Right now if you're backtracking to do a full clear you're slowing way down.


Should maps be 'for' something specific? Should the end game in general be segregated into 'activity A is for gaining X, activity B is for improving Y, etc etc'?
Maps should be for gaining experience, currency and loot just as they are now. They are a tougher challenge than farming zones that are much lower level. Maps are serving their purpose in my opinion.


Do we need a map system at all?
Not necessarily but if they remove it what will provide the challenge? Unless they provide a way to scale zones up to your desired level of challenge I don't see a good way to remove them entirely.

Do we have enough to do at end game? What do we currently have? Which order would you prioritize these in if you were in Chris' shoes?
I am fairly satisfied with the end game as it is but am not opposed to them adding more. Fortunately I am not in Chris' shoes and don't have to think about how to make this game stick to it's roots while drawing in a wider audience to keep the wheels turning.
What I do a lot is divination card farming, atziri runs, mapping, selling, lab runs, helping guildies, vaaling(ruining) items, play an alt and chatting. I rarely PvP outside of Leo quests. When one activity starts to bore me I find another or play an alt character.

What could they change about race seasons that would make you more enthusiastic about participation?
Asynchronous racing, I rarely get to participate in as many races as I want to because of work or other activities that occupy my time. My enthusiasm doesn't need anything. I'm there, except when I can't be.

Is end game crafting through alt > regal or chaos spam satisfying?
No. It's always a gamble and rarely have I ever gotten a well rolled item that sells for more than a few chaos.

Is master crafting satisfying?
No. For a "Master" they surely can't roll affixes towards the top tiers. If I am spending 2 exalt I'd like to see the ranges higher or guaranteed to roll closer to the max.

How does crafting compare to playing in maps and trying to find an item similar to the one you're trying to craft? Or trading for it?
I feel the best chance for me to obtain an item is to run maps and hope RNG gives me something good. I very rarely trade to get an item but I save my currency for the few items I do end up buying. I wish that high item level items did not have the chance to roll low tier affixes. I am not saying that they should all roll in the top tier but, for example, an ilvl 84 item should not be able to roll the 3 lowest tiers at all. I've found so many okay items that were discarded because it rolls a +2 to maximum energy shield or 19 life, etc. It's disheartening when I focus on it too much.

Any comments or concerns about currency?
Remove mirrors or change it's function entirely and bring back eternal orbs. You shouldn't be able to dupe an item, you should be able to craft your own item with near perfect stats if you want to work towards that. Mirrored items can't even be enchanted so it's even less desirable to get one anyway.

What does it mean, to you, to have everything you know about the end game of PoE changed in 2.4?
I don't know but I'll be sticking around to see whatever it is. I hope it doesn't cause more server lag and disconnects, whatever may be in store for us.

P.S. Nice thread, good questions and I hope people don't derail it over differing opinions.

OK, end-game, what is it? First, I will say what I understand about it.


An end-game is an activity to do, when grinding for levels is not the main goal. A player,upon reaching the level cap(or soft cap of 90s), must have something to grind, else he gets bored. What does a bored person do? Here are some examples:

* A guy who played 120 hours posting how bad/easy/limited the content is. 120 F2P hours top kek.
* Bandit PK happens (IMO it's kinda OK)
* He plays poe.trade tycoon by creating multiple fake listings to manipulate prices
* Looks at steam, and then Gaem is Ded (refer to the Sky is Falling thread)
* Complain about RNG, in an RNG loot based game
* Plays Overwatch


In the above examples, your best scenario is that he plays another game, while the devs make more content.


How do you make an Endgame?
The cheap, tried and tested method: take the main game loop, and extend it. Gate items/rewards behind it, and TADA! End-game.


Path of Exile Endgames. What we actually have:

* Uber Atziri - enter an instance, fight mobs, fight boss, get Exclusive Loot
* Uber Labyrinth - enter an instance, fight mobs, fight boss, get Exclusive Loot Enchants
* PVP, the prodigal child. Incomplete.
* Best Choice, and never openly advertised, REROLL A DIFFERENT SPEC


What? Where the hell are MAPS? Aren't they endgame?

Maps are not there when you have nothing else to do. They are there, because EXP/TIME is better than the rest of the options. This is according to how PoE players use it at least. This is the topic when players come up with Maps, it is always about EXPERIENCE GAIN, NOT EXCLUSIVE LOOT.



Potential Endgames for Path of Exile

* Racing - but very underplayed. GGG could position a Race season in-between league dead zones
* Guild PVP - tried and tested. WOW Raids. Ragnarok Online Emperium Wars. GW2 Territory Battles.
* Limited Format PVP - Limited Set of Uniques, Magic Items, and Skill Gems
* Randomized Solo Boss Rush - All BOSS, NO LOOT DROPS, GAIN BOSS POINTS, BUY ITEMS IN BOSS SHOP