remove backtracking from The Dweller of the Deep

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grepman wrote:

so isn't absolutely ironic that the most popular map layouts in PoE are the ones that produce the LEAST procedurally generated layout ? ie constant layouts such as arid lake, gorge, plateau where players dont have to know where to go and explore each corner ?

No, it isn't. Because

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maze-like design encourages exploration and nonlinearity, as well as learning to navigate through such an environment.

sadly, there's nothing to explore in PoE after first x0 maps.

I really like the way they deal with the whole exploring vs backtracking thing in PoE. When you are first playing the game, it is easy to get lost, and find new places, and you will definitely need to backtrack sometimes - but that's OK, it's part of the fun!

Once you get experienced with the game, you learn how to tell where things are, and so you can play through it faster and smarter. Exploring the same area you've already explored 9 or so times before stops being fun after a while. Especially when you realise that every reward in every area is always the same - it's just about and a chance at some rng loot.
So, minimising the time you spend exploring means you can enjoy the parts of the game you still like a lot. And of course for many players, optimising your play can be really fun too - whether it's trying to get the best run speed, exp rate, number of rng loot chances, or make the best progress towards the goal you're trying to achieve.

The Dweller's cave seems like it is hard to optimise - you'll always end up backtracking (either out of the cave again, or, from the waypoint at the start of the map.
However, as someone posted earlier, you can easily still optimise it by leaving a portal at the bridge, running to the ledge waypoint, warping back to town then taking your portal to find the dweller, and then portalling back after killing the dweller to pick up your skill point before heading back to the ledge. So it doesn't really need changing; maybe just a bit more foresight than some of the other quests.

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Jennik wrote:

Welp, brick walls and all that. In the brick walls' favor, at least they don't constantly call me a liar. Jesus.

Good day for all days, sir.

you havent presented a single argument as to why you think backtracking is bad, while brushing off some things as 'archaic' off few minutes of watching youtube of one grand ol' game. what's so archaic about nox design ? I bet you won't answer that will ya ?

you also seem to not understand that linearity and backtracking are antonyms. you usually cant backtrack in a linear game.

like I thought, we cannot indulge in dialogue. I mean, if you dig deeper than you'll understand that I also hate tutorials and new player babying.
you have this axiom that 'backtracking = BAD' that someone instilled in your head that for some reason you can't challenge. too bad.

it sounds awfully familiar to new age gamers complains "I'm wasting time because boo hoo I had to walk somewhere Ive already been to/cleared". hundreds of games did this in the 90s, classic games. the consumer was simply more engaged, somehow had time to play them and didn't have ADD. oh thats right an older audience played those games

my argument that in generally backtracking is nothing inherently bad - even otherwise- and I presented reasons as to why it's good in games, as opposed to linearity

you presented exactly zero reasons why backtracking is bad per se, either in general or in particular. sorry.

"backtracking=bad" or "grinding=bad" are common misconceptions people mention all the timel,.

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silumit wrote:

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grepman wrote:

so isn't absolutely ironic that the most popular map layouts in PoE are the ones that produce the LEAST procedurally generated layout ? ie constant layouts such as arid lake, gorge, plateau where players dont have to know where to go and explore each corner ?

No, it isn't. Because

"

maze-like design encourages exploration and nonlinearity, as well as learning to navigate through such an environment.

sadly, there's nothing to explore in PoE after first x0 maps.

the random layout itself is exploration.

look at something like HoMM3. Cult classic game in many communities. random map generator was a must. there was nothing on procedurally generated map that you havent explored before. and yet, each randomly generated map gives you a sense of unknown, which make it unique compared to static maps

imagine a crazy tough boss somewhere in a maze-like poe map. actually, we did have something like that- invasion. a boss in on the map, dont know where.

a layout like undeground river lends to surprises and exploration. a layout such as gorge is the most boring piece of shit A->B route ever. and dont get me started on the idea of an endless ledge

Grep, your entire dismissal of his argument hinges on him refusing to answer your ad hominem questions. However, "exploration" has nearly zero meaning in PoE, because it is not an open world game. It is linear, and this is obvious by the map layout and act progression.

Here is what an open world map looks like:


Note that you are somewhat limited by the level of monsters you can handle and your builds, but the choice of where to go, and in what order are still largely up to the player.

Contrast that with this:


How can you seriously talk about "exploration" in this game? It makes no sense at all.

Can you muster even a single point of defense for backtracking in this game?

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grepman wrote:

you also seem to not understand that linearity and backtracking are antonyms. you usually cant backtrack in a linear game.

I don't think these things are antonyms. Linearity is about doing things in a set order, and always knowing what to do next. Path of exile has some linearity in terms of waypoint and main storyline progression, but the side areas and side quests can usually be done in any order, which adds a bit of non-linearity to the game. For example, you can complete the library quest before killing Piety, or not even enter the library until after you've killed dominus. In your first playthrough, you might not even know the library exists until you stumble upon it looking for the hedge maze or the sceptre of god.

Backtracking is about having to go back and do things you've already done. In many games this involves killing a bunch of enemies again that you've already killed, and don't give you much benefit any more. In PoE, it also involves going back over areas where all the enemies are already dead; you gain literally nothing from doing this.

Backtracking is unrelated to linearity - linear and non-linear games can both have backtracking in them. Many linear games, for eg, have areas you can't unlock until you have (say) rock-smashing power, and once you get the rock smashing power then your next quest is to go back to an area where there was a rock and smash it, opening up the next linear path to follow.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Grep, your entire dismissal of his argument hinges on him refusing to answer your ad hominem questions. However, "exploration" has nearly zero meaning in PoE, because it is not an open world game. It is linear, and this is obvious by the map layout and act progression.

how are they ad hominem tho ?
when you come to a job with a resume, is a question about your experience considered 'ad hominem' ?

you are using ad hominem wrong or just using it incorrectly. I never insulted him personally or indirectly.

I just noted his usage of 'archaic design' with no arguments whatsoever to back up a blanket statemnt and was a bit triggered.

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Here is what an open world map looks like:


Note that you are somewhat limited by the level of monsters you can handle and your builds, but the choice of where to go, and in what order are still largely up to the player.

Contrast that with this:


How can you seriously talk about "exploration" in this game? It makes no sense at all.

the question was why backtracking, in general, can be good. Ive answered the question. hundreds of games, from Doom to Jedi Knight games to Arkham Asylum to Zelda use backtracking as part of a design.

is PoE an open world game ? no. is D:OS ? actually, no either (but nitpicking ;). but just because PoE isnt an open world game doesnt mean we should strip out of ALL backtracking, exploring, lore, and dead ends. why should it mean that ? makes little sense. if you strip out all layouts the game is left with an endless edge or, as I always say, endless elreon mission for most linearity possible engagement.

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Can you muster even a single point of defense for backtracking in this game?

I did, didn't I ? If one is viewing it through the prism of PoE being some kind of an optimization game, then they likely will never admit any need for backtracking. but PoE isnt a traveling salesman game.

the majority of poe's backtracking people actually complaining about is hilariously minor compared to other games backtracking too.

oh no you had to visit a zone for a minute to kill a random monster...wait what ? oh no you ended up in a dead end in underground river. wait what ? it takes literally 30 seconds tops to traverse most of the map with flasks and movement skills. but no...'muh efficency'

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how are they ad hominem tho ?

You were fishing for ways to discredit him, and no answer to any of those questions would change anything about the topic.

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the question was why backtracking, in general, can be good. Ive answered the question. hundreds of games, from Doom to Jedi Knight games to Arkham Asylum to Zelda use backtracking as part of a design.

The question is of why backtracking in PoE is good. You have yet to answer that. The backtracking in this game confers none of the benefits that it would in any of the other games you mentioned.

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I did, didn't I ?

You did not.

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the majority of poe's backtracking people actually complaining about is hilariously minor compared to other games backtracking too.

It doesn't matter how it is in other games. We are talking about it in the context of PoE.

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oh no you had to visit a zone for a minute to kill a random monster...wait what ? oh no you ended up in a dead end in underground river. wait what ? it takes literally 30 seconds tops to traverse most of the map with flasks and movement skills. but no...'muh efficency'

But why? How did having to do that improve the player experience at all? Or is it purely detrimental?
(Hint: It's the latter.)

I'm all for talking about game features from a design perspective, but part of that discussion includes how those decisions affect players. So far, your argument completely disregards how players experience the game.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

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grepman wrote:

you also seem to not understand that linearity and backtracking are antonyms. you usually cant backtrack in a linear game.

I don't think these things are antonyms. Linearity is about doing things in a set order, and always knowing what to do next. Path of exile has some linearity in terms of waypoint and main storyline progression, but the side areas and side quests can usually be done in any order, which adds a bit of non-linearity to the game. For example, you can complete the library quest before killing Piety, or not even enter the library until after you've killed dominus. In your first playthrough, you might not even know the library exists until you stumble upon it looking for the hedge maze or the sceptre of god.

Backtracking is about having to go back and do things you've already done. In many games this involves killing a bunch of enemies again that you've already killed, and don't give you much benefit any more. In PoE, it also involves going back over areas where all the enemies are already dead; you gain literally nothing from doing this.

Backtracking is unrelated to linearity - linear and non-linear games can both have backtracking in them. Many linear games, for eg, have areas you can't unlock until you have (say) rock-smashing power, and once you get the rock smashing power then your next quest is to go back to an area where there was a rock and smash it, opening up the next linear path to follow.

backtracking is going back to places you've been to, in general. ot necessarily doing what you did before or kill respawned mobs again (in metroidvanias, new areas or secrets and items are discovered by going back to old areas with new tools in your disposal), and in a lot of other games it's about going back to old areas as part of a more set of actions you need to do to progress (such as, for example, classic adventure games- in fact, monkey island 2: lechuck's revenge is often considered the most textbook example of adventure game design, and it has extreme backtracking between the islands)

[oh yeah, fast travel can eat a dick ;)]

in poe, this implies going back to cleared areas.

yes, I agree with you- some linear games have *some* backtracking as well. I guess fair enough, they arent completely antonyms. But their diametrically opposing each other in overwhelming majority of games I've played (probably clocked over a thousand of games at this point).

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Albinosaurus wrote:

You were fishing for ways to discredit him, and no answer to any of those questions would change anything about the topic.

no, I was not- and it would change that I would not attempt the dialogue altogether

I dont expect a modern gamer who hasnt played many 90s games to understand the gaming of the 90s. I also wanted to understand how 'old and archaic' means and whats the timespan. To me personally Nox is better than any ARPG that came out in last 5 years, except PoE.

and his response, generated from probably around 5 minutes of looking at youtube and judging it byg what OTHER PEOPLE have to say about the game is hilarious

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I'm sure it has more flaws than just backtracking, mainly because it's so damn old we simply hadn't had time to make mistakes (like having tons of backtracking in a game) and learn from them yet (by seeing how incredibly boring players find it).

please, understand- we have no dialogue here. saying game is bad because its old is hilarious. saying a game that I consider NOT old (old game for me is late 80s max) 'damn old' just sounds hilarious. we have no common ground here. that's what I was trying to communicate to him

compound it with my subjective view that 95% of games nowadays cannot hold a handle to game design back in the 90s, you should understand why I wouldnt have this conversation. he tricked me tho. he said try your best, then acted offended when I simply layed out why backtracking is a good thing

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The question is of why backtracking in PoE is good. You have yet to answer that. The backtracking in this game confers none of the benefits that it would in any of the other games you mentioned.

um no - this was the question

'Since you're a proponent of backtracking, please list its benefits. I honestly can't think of any.'

so, it was a general question to which I answered generally, and I alluded to how it is in context of poe.

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You did not.

false

me quoting myself:

"Procedural generation was introduced into many genres, including ARPGs to have levels that are always different, always exciting to explore and varied enough a player 'doesn't know where to go', as opposed to hand-crafted static levels."

how is that not an answer... more underground rivers and labyrinth-like levels where one can get lost than gorges that are all the fucking same. UNLESS we're talking about efficiency

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But why? How did having to do that improve the player experience at all? Or is it purely detrimental?
(Hint: It's the latter.)

what do you mean why ? exploration, different layouts, going to different zones and slaying different mobs are all part of ARPG, are they not ?

here's a major backtrack complaint about prophecy:

1)go find rare mob and get unique item prophecy so player needs to a)know where the mob is- teaches player about lore and mob locations b)go to the zone- teaches players to use waypoints in every zone c)find the mob in a randomly generated layout such as crypt d)rewards player with a guaranteed unique once mob is slain

I found 4 things that enhanced a players experience. four things that wouldnt matter if all youre concerned about is speed

now I challenge you to say why backtracking is bad not using 'efficiency' or 'wasted time'

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I'm all for talking about game features from a design perspective, but part of that discussion includes how those decisions affect players. So far, your argument completely disregards how players experience the game.

all players experience the game differently. believe it or not when I started PoE I explored every little corner of all maps possible in story context. it was great. it was MUCH more fun for me than any clear-centered gameplay nowadays.

I wish we can go back to open beta days, glory days where players didnt have tons of power and you couldnt clear with your eyes closed.