remove backtracking from The Dweller of the Deep

A game is generally considered "old" if it's more than 5 or 6 years. Something from the 80's/90's is definitely qualified as "ancient." Either way, you don't need common ground with him to discuss the topic at hand, and you were fishing. Deny it if you want, but you're the only who that would be convinced by such a denial. You clearly have a bias against newer games, and regardless of your reasoning, it doesn't help your credibility when you say things like "95% of modern games... <some derogatory comment about them>." Your attempt at fishing out flaws in him only revealed them of you.

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me quoting myself:

"Procedural generation was introduced into many genres, including ARPGs to have levels that are always different, always exciting to explore and varied enough a player 'doesn't know where to go', as opposed to hand-crafted static levels."

how is that not an answer... more underground rivers and labyrinth-like levels where one can get lost than gorges that are all the fucking same. UNLESS we're talking about efficiency

You're talking about exploration--not backtracking, and the two are not the same thing. Your attempt at answering how it is good in PoE is a total Straw Man. The original topic was about Dweller of the Deep (and similar cases) and you pull out prophecies. The two don't work the same at all. Prophecies are not part of your progression through the main game. They are optional side content. Even calling that backtracking is a wrong way to look at it, because prophecies are just mini quests; they are functionally identical to how quests work in many modern RPGs and MMOs: Get quest -> complete listed condition -> quest complete (may or may not have reward). You can try to argue that Dweller is an optional quest too, but that point becomes moot when you account for the fact that it awards a skill point, so it's functionally mandatory, unlike prophecies.

You continually use fallacy and dodge tactics to avoid answering the question with a straight answer.

How is backtracking through empty/cleared content good?

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Albinosaurus wrote:

A game is generally considered "old" if it's more than 5 or 6 years. Something from the 80's/90's is definitely qualified as "ancient." Either way, you don't need common ground with him to discuss the topic at hand, and you were fishing. Deny it if you want, but you're the only who that would be convinced by such a denial.

I wasnt fishing for anything, again. You trying to tell me what I was trying to do is funny.

I'll admit when I was doing something. I have balls. I wasn't trying to fish or whatever you want to call. I wanted to see how someone can make such a sweeping generalization, having played multiple arpg games, especially 90s games.

you wont find me in any sports simulator thread because I only played like 4 or 5 games sports games in my life not counting football manager. I dont have credibility to say anything generalizing shit what a basketball simulator should be like.

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You clearly have a bias against newer games, and regardless of your reasoning, it doesn't help your credibility when you say things like "95% of modern games... <some derogatory comment about them>." Your attempt at fishing out flaws in him only revealed them of you.

actually, no, I do not- unlike him I can prove this. Ive played hundreds of modern games. my collection on steam (fuck steam btw) and gog is huge, and thats not counting physical copies. and its not like Im tooting my horn, Im explaining why I can make this quantitive generalization.

if he said, sure Ive been a player since 80s Ive been playing a ton of arpg, dungeon crawlers and blobbers- I would have no further questions to him and dialogue would continue.

just like if he said nah man, poe GD d3 and torchlight is all Ive played- Id say well then probably you shouldnt generalize stuff then, and we have nothing to talk about, with all due respect, because playing 3-4 modern arpgs doesn't make you credible to talk about arpgs as a whole, a genre thats been around for ton of time

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You're talking about exploration--not backtracking, and the two are not the same thing. Your attempt at answering how it is good in PoE is a total Straw Man. The original topic was about Dweller of the Deep (and similar cases) and you pull out prophecies. The two don't work the same at all. Prophecies are not part of your progression through the main game. They are optional side content. Even calling that backtracking is a wrong way to look at it, because prophecies are just mini quests;

well that's fair (aside from strawman bullshit, which I dont get)- but thats the majority of what people call backtracking on this board. look up all the complaint posts about prophecy. also, GGG has officially said that with their notes, I quote,

"The seal costs of Unique and Fated Unique prophecies have been reduced. They now occur less often, reducing the amount of backtracking in the end-game.
The occurrence chances of various prophecies have been reduced with the goal of less backtracking in the end-gam"

so then GGG is using the term incorrectly according to your logic ?

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You can try to argue that Dweller is an optional quest too, but that point becomes moot when you account for the fact that it awards a skill point, so it's functionally mandatory, unlike prophecies.

honestly, nothing is really mandatory in the game unless it hinders your progression. since last 2 ascendancy points are definitely not mandatory, so isnt the dweller quest- and ascendancy points are generally quite more powerful than dweller quest. but that would be nitpicking here- so I dont really feel like arguing this.

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You continually use fallacy and dodge tactics to avoid answering the question with a straight answer.

How is backtracking through empty/cleared content good?

where am I dodging anything ?

I've already listed my argument as to why

1)backtracking isnt inherently bad in general
2)backtracking in poe relating to prophecy isnt bad and how it enhances experience
3)backtracking in poe area-wise isnt bad

I said many times, that backtracking through cleared content is good because its part of exploration of area that is behind fog of war in the first place. if you can see the area beforehand you have to do less backtracking. but you don't (good). in mazes and things like poe's labyrinth backtracking is good because it presents non-linear and nonobvious ways.

my comment about backtracking was in general of all complaints about backtracking people have been making lately.

if we want to take the dweller of the deep example, it simply is a dead end scenario that has a place in layouts of things, both in game and real world. if something has a dead end, you must go back the same way you came. whats so wrong with that ? if anything it teaches you a layout of the area for your nxt toon. and you can use a portal if you really want.

but fact remains, is that NONE of the people in this thread, NONE OF YOU, yourself included were able to say why backtracking is BAD without using things like 'efficiency', 'speed' and 'wasting time'.

I also dont like fast travel in games- it removes exploration, pseudo realism and sense of space. I even try not to use portals in poe a ton while running through story content. so what ?

just like with not having fast travel, the only argument Ive heard against backtracking is based on you being less efficient than you would without it. to which I already replied, valid concern if you care about efficiency, silly concern if you arent 100% concerned about clear speed/efficiency

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grepman wrote:

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silumit wrote:

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grepman wrote:

so isn't absolutely ironic that the most popular map layouts in PoE are the ones that produce the LEAST procedurally generated layout ? ie constant layouts such as arid lake, gorge, plateau where players dont have to know where to go and explore each corner ?

No, it isn't. Because

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maze-like design encourages exploration and nonlinearity, as well as learning to navigate through such an environment.

sadly, there's nothing to explore in PoE after first x0 maps.

the random layout itself is exploration.

look at something like HoMM3. Cult classic game in many communities. random map generator was a must. there was nothing on procedurally generated map that you havent explored before. and yet, each randomly generated map gives you a sense of unknown, which make it unique compared to static maps

imagine a crazy tough boss somewhere in a maze-like poe map. actually, we did have something like that- invasion. a boss in on the map, dont know where.

a layout like undeground river lends to surprises and exploration. a layout such as gorge is the most boring piece of shit A->B route ever. and dont get me started on the idea of an endless ledge

ye, the problem is HOMM's map generator was making truly random maps, while as dudio said above, POE's maps are random fluff generated over static carcass.

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silumit wrote:

ye, the problem is HOMM's map generator was making truly random maps, while as dudio said above, POE's maps are random fluff generated over static carcass.

agreed, but thats more of a depiction that poe is already super-streamlined and is very much so after the awakening (all the areas being streamlined, made linear and shrunk in size left me quite disappointed...and I miss my COVES...)...so why would you cut this even more further...we are rapidly moving into a direction of endless ledge, which would probably make me quit the game after all these years...

Like I said, you are the only one who believes you weren't looking (fishing) for a way to dismiss him on a personal level rather than addressing his arguments. Classic ad hominem. Your feeble excuses to call it "credibility" don't hold up, because he said nothing that disqualified him, despite your assertions.

You think fast travel is bad, but backtracking is fine? I've been gaming at least as long as you have, and the guy you are trying to say doesn't have credibility is absolutely right in saying that devs were using archaic design philosophies back then--because they were.

As for this bullshit that "efficiency" or "wasted time" are not arguments, you're way off the mark. Just because you don't value your time and want to spin in circles in empty content doesn't make it good design, doesn't make it "exploration," and doesn't mean anyone else wants to or appreciates it. This is an ACTION RPG. Spinning your wheels in content you have already cleared for no reason removes you from the action, breaks any kind of immersion you might try to get, and needlessly frustrates a lot of players.

Saying it's "not bad" when all the reasons given say otherwise means you have to either show how it's not, or show how it's a good thing, because everyone else believes it's bad--and it is.

You have not.

Btw, the reason that the point I was talking about as Straw Man actually is Straw Man is because of how definitions work. You replaced the subject (Dweller's) with something that seems similar (prophecies)--but isn't--and then used your argumentation to defeat the replacement instead of addressing the original subject. Textbook fallacy.

Comparing the skill point from Dweller's and the AP from Uber Lab is another fallacy: False Equivalence. Look that one up since you apparently don't know what any of these are.

It would be a lot easier for all of us if you could just address the subject without resorting to these kinds of tactics. Otherwise, we'll just have to keep calling them out for the bullshit they are.

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grepman wrote:

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silumit wrote:

ye, the problem is HOMM's map generator was making truly random maps, while as dudio said above, POE's maps are random fluff generated over static carcass.

agreed, but thats more of a depiction that poe is already super-streamlined and is very much so after the awakening (all the areas being streamlined, made linear and shrunk in size left me quite disappointed...and I miss my COVES...)...so why would you cut this even more further...we are rapidly moving into a direction of endless ledge, which would probably make me quit the game after all these years...

Slippery Slope. What's the next fallacy on the Wheel of Fail?

...double post...

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Like I said, you are the only one who believes you weren't looking (fishing) for a way to dismiss him on a personal level rather than addressing his arguments. Classic ad hominem. Your feeble excuses to call it "credibility" don't hold up, because he said nothing that disqualified him, despite your assertions.

first, speakiking for others - lol ? how do you know Im the only one ? bad in debates- very bad

I didnt have assertions- that's why I asked. if I didnt have many doubts I wouldnt have asked

what were his arguments ? he said nox design is archaic, without any arguments to back the statement up. neither did you. Im the only person in this thread, to actually provide statements that are backed up with facts and arguments and game names, and giving numerous examples from game design 101

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You think fast travel is bad, but backtracking is fine?

yes, I do. I also dont like tutorials, and would be quite happy if no game had one- but note that I do not generalize that every game should be according to my view.

see, just because devs started to develop their games to lowest common dominators and having mad qol like wiping their ass for for them, doesnt make that good. games are games- they have abstractions and immersions. fast travel is one of the biggest bullshits in RPGs- which are role playing games in a rich setting. you have a world, WALK IT.

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and the guy you are trying to say doesn't have credibility is absolutely right in saying that devs were using archaic design philosophies back then--because they were.

lol, so you ALSO dont provide any reasoning why the design is archaic- you reasoning being "because IT IS". hahahaha.
you know where a debate usually ends ? here. at the 'because it is'. you have no ammo, you havent provided a single reason for your argument and neither did you against my argument. fin. I wouldnt be surprised if you also haven't played a single second of nox.

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As for this bullshit that "efficiency" or "wasted time" are not arguments, you're way off the mark.

where did I say this ? I said efficiency is certainly an argument, but its the only argument. I challenged you to provide a single reason ASIDE from efficiency. and so far -nothing. you dont have anything else. nothing. nada. zilch. zero.

Im interested in arguments that DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT involve efficiency or 'wasted time'
Just because you don't value your time and want tospin in circles in empty content doesn't make it

Saying it's "not bad" when all the reasons given say otherwise means you have to either show how it's not, or show how it's a good thing, because everyone else believes it's bad--and it is.

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Btw, the reason that the point I was talking about as Straw Man actually is Straw Man is because of how definitions work. You replaced the subject (Dweller's) with something that seems similar (prophecies)--but isn't--and then used your argumentation to defeat the replacement instead of addressing the original subject. Textbook fallacy.

its not a fallacy because I wasnt simply talking about the dweller- I was talking about all the outcries about backtracking in prophecy AND this topic. people want to turn this game into a linear bullshit where all entrances and exits are linear, I will object.

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Comparing the skill point from Dweller's and the AP from Uber Lab is another fallacy: False Equivalence. Look that one up since you apparently don't know what any of these are.

a skill point is not equivalent to a skill point ? huh ? ascendancy point is even more powerful.

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It would be a lot easier for all of us if you could just address the subject without resorting to these kinds of tactics. Otherwise, we'll just have to keep calling them out for the bullshit they are.

no, no, no- this is not how it works

I will call out bullshit that is generalizations like 'backtracking sucks in games' and 'ancient philosophy' stated without facts or explanations, with counterexamples from my gaming experience, citing specific games, and if wanted, levels/missions. than those who have played games can debate with me, and those who don't - can resort to petty rhetorics.

so lets recap

I recited why backtracking is good 1)in general 2)in arpgs 3)in poe

I challenged you to bring up an argument why backtracking is bad without bringing up efficiency.

I asked you or that guy, to explain whats the 'ancient philosophies' of Nox, a game he found out today, and Im not sure when you found out.

still waiting...

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Albinosaurus wrote:

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grepman wrote:

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silumit wrote:

ye, the problem is HOMM's map generator was making truly random maps, while as dudio said above, POE's maps are random fluff generated over static carcass.

agreed, but thats more of a depiction that poe is already super-streamlined and is very much so after the awakening (all the areas being streamlined, made linear and shrunk in size left me quite disappointed...and I miss my COVES...)...so why would you cut this even more further...we are rapidly moving into a direction of endless ledge, which would probably make me quit the game after all these years...

Slippery Slope. What's the next fallacy on the Wheel of Fail?

And here I was hoping you'd provide reasoning to why Nox's design is 'archaic' or reason besides efficiency as to why backtracking is bad.

Nope, still rhetoric...dont worry, Ill wait. I'll be in this and any other thread about backtracking calling out anyone attempting to generalize fallacious statements.

Unlike others, I have enough time to defend something I hold dearly. Just let me know when you're ready to use actual arguments.

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SaiyanZ wrote:

I always just TP out, get my passive point in town, and resume from the Submerged Passage WP. The area is fairly linear.

I don't like when I go to town, go to wp and then go through empty half of map