It's time for preleveled/preascended characters to enter the shop or be made available somehow.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

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Albinosaurus wrote:

I'm not saying any of it is p2w. People saying stash tabs are p2w have a very skewed opinion of the subject. Hard to take them seriously here. Even if you call pre-leveled characters p2w (which it really isn't), I still am not sure what people think is being "won" by it. So I challenge these people to define "winning" in the context of this game without coming to the wrong conclusion that convenience is a form of winning (because it's not).

Pay to win is the model where giving money to the creators gives a clear advantage in playing a game -- it has nothing to do with actually winning anything. This is different from most of the model of PoE which is pay for perk where perks are generically cosmetic, armour skins, skill effects etc.

Stash tabs are very clearly pay to win under this definition, but because you can mule accounts and characters to accomplish the same thing what you're really buying is time and convenience. Thus the argument can be made that tabs are not pay to win, but pay for convenience. But it's a really fast and loose argument and can be applied to public stash tabs/3rd party trading software. This is what some people might consider a reasonable compromise.

Paying for leveled characters can very easily go into the pay to win category, because it offers people a clear advantage for spending money. But the argument can be made, just like stash tabs, that you're not offering anything that people cannot obtain themselves, so it is still pay for convenience. But the pay for convenience mentality for this would only hold if there were restrictions for things like races, and the race to 100, and probably hardcore too (since the purpose of hardcore is to present a challenge).

So again, it boils down to pay for convenience, and not actual p2w (paying for power that those who don't pay have no access to). How about an argument about how it actually IS p2w? I don't see how one can be justifiably made and/or taken seriously because of how far you would have to stretch the truth to get there.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

So again, it boils down to pay for convenience, and not actual p2w (paying for power that those who don't pay have no access to). How about an argument about how it actually IS p2w? I don't see how one can be justifiably made and/or taken seriously because of how far you would have to stretch the truth to get there.

You obviously skipped the point. People can sugarcoat it as pay for convenience because it isn't the only option.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Pay to win is the model where giving money to the creators gives a clear advantage in playing a game -- it has nothing to do with actually winning anything.

The more important question is, when is the line drawn that it is too much? You can justify just about anything as convenience if you can obtain it in game. For example, GGG starts selling mirrors. Mirrors drop, ergo paying for convenience right?

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Jennik wrote:

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johnKeys wrote:

I'm surprised anyone takes this seriously when clearly Pyro is joking.

Why do you believe this? Nothing he has posted in this thread indicates that he's anything other than genuine. If this is somehow only an attempt at humor, it's anything but "clear" that he's joking.

No, this isn't supposed to be funny.

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johnKeys wrote:

but read between the lines and Pyro has a point: leveling becomes very tedious very fast - and the fact there really isn't much to do except repeat the exact same 4 acts of content, before you get to maps (to repeat stuff again)...
pain incarnate.

there surely is another way.
GGG are focusing on "End Game". I hope they don't forget about "the game" itself.

+1 GGG plez fix

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ghoulavenger wrote:

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Albinosaurus wrote:

So again, it boils down to pay for convenience, and not actual p2w (paying for power that those who don't pay have no access to). How about an argument about how it actually IS p2w? I don't see how one can be justifiably made and/or taken seriously because of how far you would have to stretch the truth to get there.

You obviously skipped the point. People can sugarcoat it as pay for convenience because it isn't the only option.

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ghoulavenger wrote:

Pay to win is the model where giving money to the creators gives a clear advantage in playing a game -- it has nothing to do with actually winning anything.

The more important question is, when is the line drawn that it is too much? You can justify just about anything as convenience if you can obtain it in game. For example, GGG starts selling mirrors. Mirrors drop, ergo paying for convenience right?

The line between the two is pretty clear.

In game currency and real life time are not the same thing. That's why this is False Equivalence and Straw Man. Especially when talking about the rarest currency in the game. Getting from 1-60 is a direct function of how long it takes that player to do it, and experience has a "100% drop rate"--you always get experience for killing things, even if it is boosted/penalized by level difference. There's also no "advantage" in having a character well below end game content, but there is a clear advantage in having currency.

If you are going to claim that anything that saves you time is "p2w," then that just demonstrates a failure to understand what p2w is. Even describing it as an "advantage" is far too vague; it's about directly buying in-game POWER that non-payers cannot access. That's why someone paying for access to Frost in Warframe is not pay to win--players can just go farm it if they don't want to pay for it. Levels are probably the single least p2w thing that can directly effect player characters.

Even beyond that, why the hell do you care if other people pay for the convenience? It doesn't effect you at all. Even those weak claims some people make that it "effects the economy" don't really hold up, because that person is getting less currency by not going through the leveling process--and I've seen everything up to/including Exalts drop as early as Act 3 Normal.

Honestly, I don't know how you can expect your arguments to be taken seriously when they are completely fallacious.

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johnKeys wrote:

but read between the lines and Pyro has a point: leveling becomes very tedious very fast

That's a point I agree with. But OP's proposition is horrible.

GGG monetizing the fact that levelling is boring and tedious == 100% sure way to guarantee they would never fix levelling or make it less boring. Why fix the game, if they could profit from an un-fixed game?

Personally, I'd never do this because I enjoy advancing a character to level 60. I've heard other players complain about it though. This would be less pay-to-win than stash taps. The main advantage a person could gain I see is early in the league getting a jump on others to get to end game for trading end game equipment for profit. That could be easily fixed though by putting in a delay at the beginning of the league where the pre-leveled characters wouldn't be sold. Or alternatively do the same thing as trials, you can't purchase it in a new league until you've advanced a character to level 60. Perhaps GGG could make some good money which would be good for everyone.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

The line between the two is pretty clear.

In game currency and real life time are not the same thing. That's why this is False Equivalence and Straw Man. Especially when talking about the rarest currency in the game.

It is quite possible to obtain a mirror from drops or trading. The purpose of using the mirror as a demonstration was that it fit the same pattern that you mentioned. I did not make that suggestion, you did.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Getting from 1-60 is a direct function of how long it takes that player to do it, and experience has a "100% drop rate"--you always get experience for killing things, even if it is boosted/penalized by level difference. There's also no "advantage" in having a character well below end game content, but there is a clear advantage in having currency.

How is there no advantage in having a level 60 character versus a level 1 character? I think this is more fallacious than anything I have suggested.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

If you are going to claim that anything that saves you time is "p2w," then that just demonstrates a failure to understand what p2w is. Even describing it as an "advantage" is far too vague; it's about directly buying in-game POWER that non-payers cannot access. That's why someone paying for access to Frost in Warframe is not pay to win--players can just go farm it if they don't want to pay for it. Levels are probably the single least p2w thing that can directly effect player characters.

Now this is a disagreement in definitions. And this definition does allow my mirror example to shine. If pay to win was a concept that let players purchase power that other people could not obtain, than mirrors should be acceptable to sell. As with all other currencies. Currency drops, doesn't it? So I certainly can go farm for it. It might take ten years, but I can obtain it.

Pay to win is the model that allows people to pay for clear advantage. It isn't about what other people are capable of obtaining. The important question is: where the line is drawn on what is acceptable and what isn't?

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Even beyond that, why the hell do you care if other people pay for the convenience? It doesn't effect you at all. Even those weak claims some people make that it "effects the economy" don't really hold up, because that person is getting less currency by not going through the leveling process--and I've seen everything up to/including Exalts drop as early as Act 3 Normal.

Honestly, I don't know how you can expect your arguments to be taken seriously when they are completely fallacious.

I haven't argued strongly against the position that people should be able to buy characters. I have only stated that the concept is pay to win. I think it may you that might be pulling a straw man because you equate pay to win with "bad". GGG has to make money too.

I already showed how there's a difference between currency and time. Your example doesn't fit at all because it defies that very easy to see distinction.

I already explained that "advantage" is too vague to fit any kind of definition, and I even showed one area where starting at 60 could be a disadvantage. Another is that you don't start with gear, so you would have to either farm or trade for that too.

There's a disagreement in definitions because yours is too broad to be useful. Yours is wrong. Using mirrors is the most fallacious example you can use, because it is not likely to ever drop for someone. It's a lottery drop, and trying to compare it as a function of time is too extreme to be valid. You're literally back to your Straw Man argument.

Lastly, it is not pay to win, and I never said that p2w was bad--that was the trolls in the rest of the thread. You still have yet to provide an answer to my challenge, and your arguments have only proven my point about how far you have to stretch the truth to even attempt to.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

I already showed how there's a difference between currency and time. Your example doesn't fit at all because it defies that very easy to see distinction.

This isn't a meaningful distinction. Playing a game is an investment of time.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

I already explained that "advantage" is too vague to fit any kind of definition,

I would say that I'm being very specific on an exceptionally broad topic. Throw that red herring away already.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

and I even showed one area where starting at 60 could be a disadvantage. Another is that you don't start with gear, so you would have to either farm or trade for that too.

This could be a legitimate disadvantage if this was your first character within a league, because of lowered currency drops (but not equipment drops) in maps you are overleveled for. That is a pretty strong assumption, and also neglects that every character is faced with the same problem, not just someone that starts at level 60, which makes this disadvantage entirely moot.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

There's a disagreement in definitions because yours is too broad to be useful.

More like doesn't fit your purpose. But I also offered you the opportunity to refine what was "too far". The closest fit to that which I received out of you was "cannot be obtained by other means." To which you responded my legitimate example was a "Straw Man" because while it fit your model, you didn't like the idea.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Yours is wrong. Using mirrors is the most fallacious example you can use, because it is not likely to ever drop for someone. It's a lottery drop, and trying to compare it as a function of time is too extreme to be valid. You're literally back to your Straw Man argument.

So focus on any other currency drops, that fit within your model. They are all in play when we're talking about things people can obtain within the game which is well within your model.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Lastly, it is not pay to win, and I never said that p2w was bad--that was the trolls in the rest of the thread. You still have yet to provide an answer to my challenge, and your arguments have only proven my point about how far you have to stretch the truth to even attempt to.

I'm not sure what to make of this. It adds nothing to the argument and is only a strong denial of my position without actually saying anything.

Go play WoW. Leveling is quite easy, I leveled over 20 characters still not bored. I know not everyone likes leveling, but its opportunity to try new skills. There is no better feeling than getting your character to level where you switch to your original build. Seeing your character being not so strong on normal then cruel its much faster etc.

Leveling to maps is most fun you will ever have in poe, because real grind starts then. Equip some leveling uniques and enjoy it. Try new skills, I leveled with pretty much every skill. I mostly enjoyed fire nova mine.