It's time for preleveled/preascended characters to enter the shop or be made available somehow.

That's a cool derail you guys have going here, but he still has not addressed the point in the "not paid for" context. What's wrong with having the feature as an unlock?

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Albinosaurus wrote:

That's a cool derail you guys have going here, but he still has not addressed the point in the "not paid for" context. What's wrong with having the feature as an unlock?

I know people would like this, but I still feel like in ARPG games part of the fun is building up the character from level 1, I suppose you will just say "you can still do it if you want", but not really if everyone else is doing it, plus it kinda defeats the purpose if you still get to literally select everything like quest rewards, AC points, ect.

Which is why I think focusing on improving the leveling experience should be the more important focus, not only because it affects more people, but because it doesn't split up the community into people that have unlocked the ability to have leveled characters and ones that do.

What happens when new players want to play, they start from level 1, but if more experienced players have it unlocked they aren't and as such aren't sharing information about leveling.

I'm obviously less opposed to the unlock option, then the paid option. But still against it really either way.

For something that could bring so much value to so many players, it seems to me that it really should be the player's choice. Besides that, the unlock requires players to have leveled a character the normal way, and TONS of info already exists about how to level, so I don't see that as a major detriment.

Maybe the unlock could be a little steeper then? What about something like this:

-Defeat Malachai on Merc
-Complete Lab on Merc
-Reach level 80 with each class

It's still a bit more tedious than I would like, but there's no denying that someone who has done this is certainly qualified to use the head start to play many different builds. Sure, they could get help with the first two parts, but the third one is completely on that player. Having to level 7 characters to 80 means enough people are leveling a lot that new players can't really be left behind any more than they already are (and for basically the same reasons).

Edit:

I wish they would just fix leveling too. That would be a perfectly acceptable alternative.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

For something that could bring so much value to so many players, it seems to me that it really should be the player's choice. Besides that, the unlock requires players to have leveled a character the normal way, and TONS of info already exists about how to level, so I don't see that as a major detriment.

Maybe the unlock could be a little steeper then? What about something like this:

-Defeat Malachai on Merc
-Complete Lab on Merc
-Reach level 80 with each class

It's still a bit more tedious than I would like, but there's no denying that someone who has done this is certainly qualified to use the head start to play many different builds. Sure, they could get help with the first two parts, but the third one is completely on that player. Having to level 7 characters to 80 means enough people are leveling a lot that new players can't really be left behind any more than they already are (and for basically the same reasons).

Edit:

I wish they would just fix leveling too. That would be a perfectly acceptable alternative.

Tons are available now, but GGG changes aspects of leveling with every major expansion. If the default is to just level whatever is the fastest character to the objective to unlock leveled characters, then the "meta" will be just do that, so you get it out of the way at the start of the league. Not only do you not have to spend time leveling something that would be a bit slower, but you get to play an optimized build specifically for leveling.


The First two aren't that big of a deal, those typically can be done within 24-48 hours of a league, however reaching level 80 with all classes, seems a bit steep, this essentially just means this is more for a standard based implementation then anything to do with temp leagues. I personally don't know anyone that levels all 7 classes to 80 every league.



I don't mind leveling that much, small changes, like increasing the movement speed of all characters by 10%, maybe 20% in town. Making an armor penalty not apply after XX amount of strength or something, so that it is still applicable to racing (if need be) but isn't detrimental to leveling.

In order for this to be viewed as not an advantage, the following game mechanics would have to also be scrapped.

1. Respecs should not cost currency. Respecs must be free.
2. No achievement could be created, and any achievement removed that requires more than 1 character to achieve.
3. Character death penalties must be removed completely.
4. Distance in the skill tree must be tightened, so any class can play any build with no drawbacks caused by travel in the tree.

So before you ask yourself whether or not GGG would consider this "option" You need to ask yourself if they are willing to implement these four changes (and any others I may have missed) in order to keep the pay-to-win people off their backs, and to adhere to their free-to-play model.

That's exactly the point, though. The feature is for people who want to get leveling out of the way so they can play their characters. One of each to 80 is steep, but if it meant I could play all my alts from where the game actually begins for me, I would do it. If someone does use a speed leveling build, it's still a legit build, and not that different in practice from what many people already do: Speed level with cheese build, then respec into actual build. This just trims the fat.

The game knowledge needed to actually do this efficiently is another point toward the kind of players who would want to use the feature. They generally aren't noobs. Players that like to play many builds can actually enjoy the game.

I played very heavily the first two weeks of this League, and have barely put 4 hours in total on the game since then because the leveling grind is so boring. I want to play, but I just can't. All the bullshit with prophecies and Lab don't help anything either. Farming currency and gear just feels completely pointless when I can't stand the leveling enough to get a character high enough to have a use for it, and farming that stuff is supposed to be one of the big draws of the game. Been tempted to just reinstall Torchlight 2 and play that instead.

PoE is in a bad spot right now. Not just because of leveling, prophecies, or Lab. It's got a lot to work out. The common thread that runs through nearly every issue is that they stem from GGG not knowing their player base, or looking at basic facts about what the players want. I know some long time players, especially big supporters and founders, are prone to accept a lot of the things that drive other players away, and shrug them off as "casual problems," but that's never been a healthy attitude for any online-only game. You don't want to give too much to casuals either, or it dumbs everything down too hard (like WoW did). There has to be a middle ground.

The thing that is so irritating about the current model is that it excludes an entire demographic of players: Altoholics. There are only so many ways you can level 1-60 without slashing your own wrists. The game doesn't really become interesting until Merc. Yet we have to slog through this nonsense with each character, with no alternatives, and are expected to enjoy it each time. It simply doesn't work that way. It's like playing the first level of the first Mario game 1,000 times in a row. It's neat and interesting the first dozen or so times, but by your 30th or 50th you have already seen all there is to see on that level. You're ready to play the rest of the game. But no, you have to go through the other 950+ runs before that can happen. It's that level of boring.

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Xtorma wrote:

In order for this to be viewed as not an advantage, the following game mechanics would have to also be scrapped.

1. Respecs should not cost currency. Respecs must be free.
2. No achievement could be created, and any achievement removed that requires more than 1 character to achieve.
3. Character death penalties must be removed completely.
4. Distance in the skill tree must be tightened, so any class can play any build with no drawbacks caused by travel in the tree.

So before you ask yourself whether or not GGG would consider this "option" You need to ask yourself if they are willing to implement these four changes (and any others I may have missed) in order to keep the pay-to-win people off their backs, and to adhere to their free-to-play model.

They literally wouldn't have to do even one of those. We're also not talking about MTX anymore. Welcome back to the conversation, btw.

"

Albinosaurus wrote:

"

Xtorma wrote:

In order for this to be viewed as not an advantage, the following game mechanics would have to also be scrapped.

1. Respecs should not cost currency. Respecs must be free.
2. No achievement could be created, and any achievement removed that requires more than 1 character to achieve.
3. Character death penalties must be removed completely.
4. Distance in the skill tree must be tightened, so any class can play any build with no drawbacks caused by travel in the tree.

So before you ask yourself whether or not GGG would consider this "option" You need to ask yourself if they are willing to implement these four changes (and any others I may have missed) in order to keep the pay-to-win people off their backs, and to adhere to their free-to-play model.

They literally wouldn't have to do even one of those. We're also not talking about MTX anymore. Welcome back to the conversation, btw.

then it would be pay to win, with absolutely no room to argue that it is not.

No, that's not what we are saying at all. Seriously, go back a few pages and catch up. Your comments are extremely out of place and don't make any sense in the context of the conversation right now. Either that, or you're jumping to some really extreme conclusions off some very dubious assumptions.