It's time for preleveled/preascended characters to enter the shop or be made available somehow.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

No, that's not what we are saying at all. Seriously, go back a few pages and catch up. Your comments are extremely out of place and don't make any sense in the context of the conversation right now. Either that, or you're jumping to some really extreme conclusions off some very dubious assumptions.

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That's exactly the point, though. The feature is for people who want to get leveling out of the way so they can play their characters. One of each to 80 is steep, but if it meant I could play all my alts from where the game actually begins for me, I would do it. If someone does use a speed leveling build, it's still a legit build, and not that different in practice from what many people already do: Speed level with cheese build, then respec into actual build. This just trims the fat.

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The game knowledge needed to actually do this efficiently is another point toward the kind of players who would want to use the feature. They generally aren't noobs. Players that like to play many builds can actually enjoy the game.

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I played very heavily the first two weeks of this League, and have barely put 4 hours in total on the game since then because the leveling grind is so boring. I want to play, but I just can't. All the bullshit with prophecies and Lab don't help anything either. Farming currency and gear just feels completely pointless when I can't stand the leveling enough to get a character high enough to have a use for it, and farming that stuff is supposed to be one of the big draws of the game. Been tempted to just reinstall Torchlight 2 and play that instead.

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There has to be a middle ground.

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The thing that is so irritating about the current model is that it excludes an entire demographic of players: Altoholics. There are only so many ways you can level 1-60 without slashing your own wrists. The game doesn't really become interesting until Merc. Yet we have to slog through this nonsense with each character, with no alternatives, and are expected to enjoy it each time. It simply doesn't work that way. It's like playing the first level of the first Mario game 1,000 times in a row. It's neat and interesting the first dozen or so times, but by your 30th or 50th you have already seen all there is to see on that level. You're ready to play the rest of the game. But no, you have to go through the other 950+ runs before that can happen. It's that level of boring.

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Albinosaurus wrote:

Funny thing about forums. Conversations tend to evolve over 10-20+ pages. If you don't want to participate, then don't, but if you butt in with nothing relevant to say to the actual conversation, don't be surprised if nobody cares what you have to say.

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Xtorma wrote:

In order for this to be viewed as not an advantage, the following game mechanics would have to also be scrapped.

1. Respecs should not cost currency. Respecs must be free.
2. No achievement could be created, and any achievement removed that requires more than 1 character to achieve.
3. Character death penalties must be removed completely.
4. Distance in the skill tree must be tightened, so any class can play any build with no drawbacks caused by travel in the tree.

So before you ask yourself whether or not GGG would consider this "option" You need to ask yourself if they are willing to implement these four changes (and any others I may have missed) in order to keep the pay-to-win people off their backs, and to adhere to their free-to-play model.

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Xtorma wrote:

I find my posts in this thread quite relevant, if you do not, that is an issue with you, not the quality of my posts.

GGG does not sell character power.

Level 60 is more powerful than level 1

Buying 59 levels is buying power.


Let people buy goldrims then, I mean, a lot of people find them on their first character anyway. and they are quite cheap. Sell them for $1 in the store, great way to make some extra cash, and it wouldn't hurt anyone as long as you couldn't buy one until you made it to 60 on your first character. Add in all the leveling uniques for that matter.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

In order for this to be viewed as not an advantage, the following game mechanics would have to also be scrapped.

1. Respecs should not cost currency. Respecs must be free.
2. No achievement could be created, and any achievement removed that requires more than 1 character to achieve.
3. Character death penalties must be removed completely.
4. Distance in the skill tree must be tightened, so any class can play any build with no drawbacks caused by travel in the tree.

So before you ask yourself whether or not GGG would consider this "option" You need to ask yourself if they are willing to implement these four changes (and any others I may have missed) in order to keep the pay-to-win people off their backs, and to adhere to their free-to-play model.

Excellent post! Thank you for trying to address the potential negatives. I think you've made some good points here. I'll try to give my opinion on each.

1. True that Respecs being free would give a free alternative to a pre-leveled character. It would also seem to not punish sloppy planning though. Although it would be nice to have an idea and immediately try it out in real game play situations. I'm not really sure though that it would be necessary to provide a free alternative to purchasing a pre-leveled character. I think it might make more sense to just argue that pre-leveled characters should be free? I don't think it is necessary to provide a free alternative in order that it not be P2W. I see the pre-leveled character as a convenience rather than helping to win anything?

2. I always assumed that achievements were more for personal goals? If so then this wouldn't really matter. However, if the community (or significant parts of the community) consider this a "bragging rights" issue then I'd have to agree with you. Any achievement specific to a class would require a character that started at level 1 in order to achieve it.

3. I would like to see death penalties nerfed. So, I do kind of like this idea in general. I don't see how this is really relevant to the pre-leveled character anyway? A pre-leveled character is going to see more death penalty points taken away for the same amount of hours played. This seems to be the simple conclusion from the fact that the death penalty is almost irrelevant prior to level 60?

4. I'm sorry, I'm not sure what to say about this one? I don't understand how it is relevant to pre-leveled characters?

EDIT:

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Xtorma wrote:

I find my posts in this thread quite relevant, if you do not, that is an issue with you, not the quality of my posts.

GGG does not sell character power.

Level 60 is more powerful than level 1

Buying 59 levels is buying power.


Let people buy goldrims then, I mean, a lot of people find them on their first character anyway. and they are quite cheap. Sell them for $1 in the store, great way to make some extra cash, and it wouldn't hurt anyone as long as you couldn't buy one until you made it to 60 on your first character. Add in all the leveling uniques for that matter.

I disagree that that the Goldrims example is analogous to a pre-leveled character.

True that a level 60 is more powerful than a level 1 but if one had to level a character to say level 75 before they could get a pre-leveled character then there is no advantage because then the comparison would be a new pre-leveled level 60 character having less power than a level 75 character.

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Turtledove wrote:

We shouldn't confuse paying for convenience and paying to win. Increased stash tabs, premium stash tabs, and currency stash tabs are convenience features. That doesn't mean that they are free. They are pay for convenience. If GGG offered pre-leveled characters and did it correctly then it would be pay for convenience rather than pay to win. At least that is my opinion. Others disagree with this. Heck some say that increased number of stash tabs are pay to win. I disagree but believe increased number of stash tabs comes much closer pay to win than would be pre-leveled characters.