Death Penalties

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iamstryker wrote:

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TheSwampDog wrote:

It is not false. It doesn't make the game ANY harder, it just makes it take longer.

I'm not really sure what the difference is Swamp. Things that are more difficult always take longer. I don't really see where people are coming from who say that they game wouldn't be more difficult. On one hand you play the game and when you die you lose some exp that you then have to regain as a consequence for dieing. If you die A LOT then you simply can not progress in terms of leveling. On the other hand you have a game where you progress even if you DIE A LOT. One of these sounds a whole lot easier than the other. Without a death penalty you don't have to care nearly as much about your build and especially about defenses.

You don't differentiate Difficulty with Time investment. Harder versus longer.

For exemple, the first time you met the bosses, they were difficult, you had to learn what to do and even now you need to play right. Its timed jumping through hoops but the closest thing we can hope to call skills in an arpg.

When you die to dsync lag or overall bad balancing out in the wild you didnt screw up, you didnt learn anything you just lost precious time. You can 1) hope to get lucky and no lag this time. 2) Push through while cursing you didnt feat skill point the only way viable that you were told since the start of the game or 3)reroll the map and hope mobs make more sense.

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RamzaBehoulve wrote:

People whine because their time invested is nullified, not because they died based on the game difficulty.

your time investment isn't exactly nullified. You still made progress in the game, collected currency, rares, alterations whatever. You also should be gaining in exp at least a little at a time unless you die a ton or if your very high level and already had a lot of exp to lose.

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RamzaBehoulve wrote:

XP penalty on death punishes time invested. It does not make the gamer any harder. There is no difficulty in leveling up, it is just a matter of time.

I am trying to see where people are coming from on these statements but I just don't see it. The game is more challenging because in order to progress you have to figure out how TO STOP DIEING. Some players will not be able to do this and will have to either reroll or will quit the game out of frustration. I can also give more than one example of how the game would be FAR EASIER without a death penalty.

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RamzaBehoulve wrote:

The best way I can explain this to you is this : if my goal is to level up, I will not go in merciless until I'm lvl 56+ and then I will bottom farm with at least 5 levels above recommended. Using this method, leveling is super easy, almost no difficulty and no risk of death, however my time investment will be much higher than if taking the risk to play at recommended level in Merciless.

Sounds like a boring way to play. Personally I would rather not play the game than play like that. The way I see it is if you took the time to do all of that easy leveling then you deserve the benefits of your time investment. These kinds of games are mostly about time investment so I feel if you put that much time into making your character and progressing that cautiously then you deserve to be rewarded for that. You cared enough to play in the most boring way possible to get an end game character. However you CAN NOT grind the end game like that. It would take ABSOLUTELY FOREVER once you get around level 75. Eventually in order to progress you have to take on the challenges. Also there really isn't much of a reason to grind like you mentioned because you can always play in a party which makes the game a lot easier.

The death penalty keeps people from playing really dumb. The game itself isn't that hard.

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RamzaBehoulve wrote:

The game is already very unforgiving of mistakes in Merciless, you already lose a lot of time from just dieing over and over which should naturally make someone understands they are not yet ready. Further punishing their time investment in the game is detrimental to most people enjoyment.

You said yourself that the player is not yet ready so how is it that they are punished unfairly for their own mistakes?

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RamzaBehoulve wrote:

I can already guarantee you that most people reaching Merciless and not gaining XP for over an hour of play because they died a few times are not going to stick around. I'm pretty sure GGG is also aware of that statistic.

IMO those players weren't going to stick around anyway. From my experience they are the players that wanted a game to finish quickly and then to move on to a different game. If they really wanted to play this game a long time then they wouldn't mind putting in the effort to learn how to not die and reroll new characters until they have the game figured out.

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RamzaBehoulve wrote:

Heavy XP loss on death is an old mechanic that should never have been brought back in a game. There are other ways to make someone understand they need to stop dieing and must improve.

Then make some other suggestions. I just don't want to see people asking for no death penalty at all. A good death penalty needs to be there.

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DAYLEET wrote:

When you die to dsync lag or overall bad balancing out in the wild you didnt screw up, you didnt learn anything you just lost precious time. You can 1) hope to get lucky and no lag this time. 2) Push through while cursing you didnt feat skill point the only way viable that you were told since the start of the game or 3)reroll the map and hope mobs make more sense.

My arguments for a death penalty don't take desync into consideration at all. Desync is a seperate issue entirely. Yes it affects the game and is unfair but you can't balance a game around the fact that it can have bad desync.

If certain enemies are unbalanced/unfair then we need to report that problem not change the death penalty because other parts of the game aren't working correctly.

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iamstryker wrote:

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TheSwampDog wrote:

It is not false. It doesn't make the game ANY harder, it just makes it take longer.

I'm not really sure what the difference is Swamp. Things that are more difficult always take longer. I don't really see where people are coming from who say that they game wouldn't be more difficult. On one hand you play the game and when you die you lose some exp that you then have to regain as a consequence for dieing. If you die A LOT then you simply can not progress in terms of leveling.

You can always progress. You only have to drop down to a lower zone and grind it out more.

My point is this; once you've already died, you died! That teaches the lesson. Subtracting XP after the fact is like a "Oh, we know you just died. But now let's subtract the last hour or two's worth of experience as a fuck you."

How does that make ANY game better?

I have to agree with the posters complaining about the xp penalty. this game is great, but dying makes it less so. Xp lost in merciless translates directly to a specific amount of time lost per build, because some builds are more efficient than others. When I die in merciless, I may have lost my entire day's worth of xp gained, becuase I may only have an hour to play a day. The threat of dying then forces players to group when they may not want to, and forces players to play a build that has been vetted by others on the forums. Or it makes players decide to not play at all. My two cents then is change the penalty. Maybe reduce the percentage lost, or be creative and come up with another system to minimize "abusive leveling behavior."

I can see one of my friends quitting soon because of the death penalty, which in turn would make me want to play less because playing solo is no fun. 15% for every death is a little OTT, if it ramped up it wouldn't be so bad, so the first death would be 5%, then 10% and finally 15%.

a penalty is needed.. but I think the penalty from cruel should also be the same penalty in merciless.

dying in merciless (which is pretty easy to do) makes you wanna just turn the game off instead of trying to recoop several hours of grinding.

Just eliminate softcore and everyone, including former sc players, will be happy.

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Drahken wrote:

a penalty is needed.. but I think the penalty from cruel should also be the same penalty in merciless.

dying in merciless (which is pretty easy to do) makes you wanna just turn the game off instead of trying to recoop several hours of grinding.

I actually have to agree. I dont even remember the last time Ive died due to my own misjudgement. I do still die to the "omfg enemies arent moving - I CANT MOVE EITHER" lag that is caused by absolutely any little thing being done on my network. Every time my son loads gmod server browser, my game nearly pauses for 5 seconds, then plays insta-catch up. Getting 3 bars *again* as a careful melee whos nearing 80 is turning into a frustrating and seemingly unrealistic goal.

Another thing is why in the world does this game require 100% of my network to itself? I literally have been thinking about buying an expensive router with some good QoS options just so I stop dying everytime my wife loads pintrest or my son loads a game (theres 5 of us, so its far more than that). Shit, just him playing a game online I have that "attack, half second it connects" type lag constantly. I have never ever had permanent lag like that in any game in my life except way back when with 56k modems, writing friggin settings and modding drivers myself to get another 100th of a kb.

Really, Im just pissed he killed me again just as I got 3 bars into 78 after Ive told him countless times to tell me before he loads the fucking gmod server browser up. Hes not allowed on the damn pc till Im 3 bars into 78 again, lol. Fair?

/walloftext lol

gotta love when you are desync'd up against a tribal chest and the next thing you know you sync back as you die.

and you lose a few hours worth of experience..