If retrospective nerf to Consuming Dark will make it to release I will hate you soooo much!

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Diphal wrote:

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StDrakeX wrote:

Nice buyout lol

Thats just a wild guess for now and probably will have to go down... but it doesn't matter now.

Here's a tip, breakdown the mods and how they work together for a potential buyer.

2 relevant general spell caster mods
1 niche caster mod
1 crafted mod - not worth much but good to have open mod for spell damage
2 absolutely useless mods

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Diphal wrote:

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Rupenus wrote:

vhlad, you can stack damage as much as you can with 75% consuming. with those fancy daggers/wands of yours you cant. 3ex daggers have really nice stats, it's true but you cant benefit much from using them in pve because of reflect.

You are funny. You keep repeating how Consuming Dark is unfair because you can stack damage as much as you want yet when I said you are glasscannon with your mirrored gear you said you don't die on reflect.

Make up your mind already. When you stack damage you either die to reflect or you don't. You can't have both and keep using it as an argument whenever you want.

dude with mirrored bow i can get 1.88M dps. -> https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1651027

whatever HP you have, you'd die to reflect with such dps. as i said with mirrored bow i stick to 110k dps in order to handle reflect mobs. with Voltaxic, i can get 170k dps, which is 50% more than mirrord bow AND reflect free. hmmm yummy. for 16ex.

Volta doesnt have 608 pdps, but you can stack more dps than you can have with mirrored bow cause you dont have to mind about reflect.

thats unfair and thats my point.

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Vhlad wrote:

The reflect avoidance is not as valuable for fire spells as it is for bow attacks or lightning spells like spark that have very far range and high duration.

Kinda yes, and nerf lovers should split their hype for VR nerf and CD nerf.

IMO it's quite hard to get rekt to reflect on classic fire build and you need to want this or be stubborn and run something like -max res ele reflect map or so.

I run now Rolling Flames Fireball build, with more than 15K tooltip on GMPed Fireball and 4 Rolling Flames and have no problems with reflect rares and I can kill rares off-screen. Not using PoF, plain 75% fire res just running with AA. Doing ele reflect maps is off question, but what is point of doing those anyway?

If they will lower conversion to like 25-30% I see no point in running with single CD and running with double would be utterly stupid, as you can just throw in shield and have much more EHP against reflect than provided by some more conversion.

If you're going to tell people to be objective (many posts back), you shouldn't:

• provide a list of pros but fail to explicitly mention that you lose ignite if you do 100% conversion with consuming dark (or you lose shock with three dragons, or freeze with pyre).
• call +20-40 int a huge number of stats (T3 to T8 suffix that no crafter would ever desire on a dagger).
• claim consuming dark bypasses enemy resistances for fire builds (You're not "bypassing" enemy resistance - you're replacing fire resistance with chaos resistance (and some monsters do have decent chaos resistance)).
• pretend you only pay the opportunity cost once (if consuming dark is nerfed to 30% you'll need to dual wield them, effectively doubling the opportunity cost).

For dual wielding perfect roll consuming dark's I'm losing:
daggers: 226% crit, 20% spell damage, 42-90 fire damage to spells, and 54% crit multiplier
wands: 50% crit, 59% spell damage, 36% cast speed, 38% crit mult

And those are things I bought for 3ex or less. With higher end items the loss potential is much greater.

But even with my cheapy rares, the cost is much more than a few extra passive points. You're looking at 15+ passive points, or around 2 links worth of support gems.

You don't gain a 7th link, either (it's missing 10% poison duration and 38% increased damage with poison for that, so the poison on chaos damage is worth less than 1 link). What you lose in crit, spell damage, added damage to spells, crit multiplier, cast speed, and elemental status ailments is 2+ links. And the loss of elemental status ailments has other side effects, like losing herald of ice, herald of thunder, or bonuses that apply to burning enemies (ngamahu, flame's advance, for example).

At 30% conversion, if you don't need to mitigate reflect, consuming dark will be a poor option. It's sad to see something that was build enabling be relegated to a reflect avoidance weapon swap gimmick (and yeah, you're probably better off using a shield like legacy saffels for reflect avoidance anyway).

The builds that are designed to use consuming dark don't care about status ailments besides poison so they aren't sacrificing them. The downsides that do exist are more than made up for by the ability to double dip with the chaos nodes. Even without double dipping, reflect immunity let's you stack damage without any concern for defense.

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The builds that are designed to use consuming dark don't care about status ailments besides poison so they aren't sacrificing them. The downsides that do exist are more than made up for by the ability to double dip with the chaos nodes. Even without double dipping, reflect immunity let's you stack damage without any concern for defense.

You should use past tense, there will be no double dipping neither reflect immunity (need for last is questionable at most, it's needed only if you want run -max res ele reflect map) so not much point to play those anymore.

As Vhlad says, CS had quite high opportunity cost, with low conversion, not much point to cover it.

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Rupenus wrote:

dude with mirrored bow i can get 1.88M dps. -> https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1651027

whatever HP you have, you'd die to reflect with such dps. as i said with mirrored bow i stick to 110k dps in order to handle reflect mobs. with Voltaxic, i can get 170k dps, which is 50% more than mirrord bow AND reflect free. hmmm yummy. for 16ex.

Volta doesnt have 608 pdps, but you can stack more dps than you can have with mirrored bow cause you dont have to mind about reflect.

thats unfair and thats my point.

Okay, I get it now. So you cannot stack damage as you would like to because you would die to reflect. Well shouldn't you blame reflect then and ask as for it being reworked or removed isntead of asking for nerf of some other guy. How the hell will that help you and your super duper reflect issue?

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The builds that are designed to use consuming dark don't care about status ailments besides poison so they aren't sacrificing them. The downsides that do exist are more than made up for by the ability to double dip with the chaos nodes. Even without double dipping, reflect immunity let's you stack damage without any concern for defense.

Wrong, my build uses Emberwake and Taming combo therefore ignite is very relevant to me.

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Diphal wrote:

Seriously, why do you nerf that Dagger again.

I get it. Chaos builds are too common in temp leagues. But why the hell you are not trying to search what caused this issue in the first place? I mean, from all high tier map rotations I've been in recently it was very rare to meet chaos build without counting myself.

All items were there for ages, yet they were not considered as an issue for the most of their existence. Until you came in with Perandus. League where EVERYTHING is accessible.

From these three items only Infernal Mantle was always cheap. But this item has huge downside with increased damage taken on low mana and has low chaos conversion.

Consuming Dark on the other hand was more expensive and provided you only with conversion, mediocre spell damage and crit. No proj speed, no cast speed, no added ele damage which are all opportunity cost when using CD instead of better rare wand. Yet you had to pay quite a bit of exalts.

Lastly - Voltaxic. If I remember correctly this item provides you "only" with conversion and keeps the chance to shock. Yet it was considered insanely expensive and hard to get even in times when there was no damn poison. Then you came in with Perandus, league where sooo many people were celebrating how they can afford everything, even these most expensive items. And then, when everyone finally using these items, GGG comes in and NERF EVERYBODY even people which have nothing to do with Voltaxic or even whole Perandus league.

So. GGG. Can u explain to me why I should keep playing your game when you are suddenly going to punish my build which is not even close to be related to this issue?

Because when I look at it... it seems to me you caused this chaos popularity problem by making these previously expensive items accessible to everybody. And after all the time you had to observe this issue your solution is to nerf everything even retrospectively?

This happend to my build in Diablo 3 with release of Reaper of Souls and I never played that game since then. I'm veeery close to apply same treatment to this game.

The issue is poison, straight out and the ability to scale chaos damage that easily. Before converting was not a big issue. It had mediocre scaling, no way to reduce enemy resistances and in difference to elemental damage their was no status effect associated with it (except for Voltaxic). Voltaxic was used for the sake of getting a mechanic into a build that was very vulnerable to reflect. But with poison chaos damage got not only that, it got the best scaling in the game and there are even ways to increase its damage (Wither, Chaos-Res reduction).

Avaibility is never really something they consider all that much. When Voltaxic was nerfed the first time it did only reliably drop in the 2 highest maps (well it did drop in the 4 highest, but not from most enemies). It was rare and still got nerfed. And Consuming Dark was nerfed before when it was not that avaible but honestly the nerf didn't really change much. Before you would dual wield CD and Binos, but since Binos got butchered using a second CD was not much of an issue and getting rid of infernal mantle was also quite a good thing.

I agree that they should have went to the source of the issue, since it is still there. They cannot implement any skill that deals direct chaos damage as long as it is either Melee (which lacks the double dipping abilities) or incredible low on damage. The issue with conversation is that you can use spells that deal way to much damage for a chaos spell and use them with poison or with CD just get it for free.

They would have to

a) Remove double dipping, since it is an odd thing anyway considering how careful they are that other stuff does not double dip or stack multiplicatively.
b) Give Chaos damage some downside back with Wither and even the few ways to reduce enemies chaos resistance it is far stronger than it was, with nothing that compensates it, maybe remove the chance to critical strike with chaos damage, just something to make it less desirable, since it is really safe, removing the reflect immunity would be bad, since it would just turn it into the same thing as any other damage type

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Emphasy wrote:

removing the reflect immunity would be bad, since it would just turn it into the same thing as any other damage type

No it wouldn't. It still does bypass ENergy Shield. They can build on this. Monsters with ES could have way less hp or ES on monsters could be highly buffed.

Also they could build on the fact that there are barely any resistances to chaos.

It would be enough for me to still use it.

Note that removing reflect map mod would be enough. They could keep reflect on rares. It is not that hard to solve for ele builds.