Chris Wilson on PoE in 2013 and 2016

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Char1983 wrote:

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C1111 wrote:

All you reached lvl100 in hc?

Sure.

Given that I died two times in act1 normal on my last character, both times to 5+ second screen freezes, how likely do you think it is that I have a lvl 100 HC character?

Besides, as far as I can see getting to level 100 is not about difficulty, but about brain-deadness. I kind of got better things to do.

that argument has no legs anyway, because if everyone did have a lvl 100 toon and could do twinned core malachai vaaled 8 mod map, then would there be to do in the game ?

its a rhetorical question to somehow pretend that theres no power creep in the game (measured as average efficiency and player power versus average content), which is now actively encouraged by devs...

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Char1983 wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

VOC did a great video with someone else the other day doing full league mod twinned core Izaro, which is a great example of challenge. One of them was playing Voltaxic Spark and still got their shit pushed, it wasnt deathless.

Flashback was awesome! Too bad I couldn't play much (only got to level 49). And too bad it is over again. Perma-flashback would be a thing that would totally get me.

EDIT: Also too bad that T15 maps are so rare. Any reasonably chainable (i.e. T11) map that is that hard? Even with all flashback mods?

Im sure some of the T12 are like Village Ruin, T11 probably Academy and Crematorium, i dont think the other T11s would measure up in danger outside of those two.

Thats why i bring up triple extra damage all the time, that was 8 mods but it wasnt triple extra. Was it dangerous as hell ? Absolutely, but the difference on a well rolled "rip map" consisting of multiple extra damage is that it will wipe you on a single mistake.

Note how in that video pretty much everything was smacking for 5k ? With a well rolled map that goes into one shot territory while completely punishes mistakes like running into malachais bombs. You have to play the fight and respect the mechanics, theres no steam rolling that way.

Thats why i say, challenge is there, the problem is that its avoided, yet people constantly want to say "game is too easy".

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kamil1210 wrote:

Complain about easy game

play sc...

if this is at me, where did I complain about an easy game here ?

the game was never hard to start with. and I always have played and will play softcore. aside from invasion no HC leagues really grabbed me. I played sc in 2013 and I play it now, I can compare and contrast, thank you.

what I'm complaining (or better yet, expressing disappointment in, I dont complain), is that a game that once was positioned as a niche game, a hardcore ARPG, a game that one had to grind in - a game that stayed such an arpg for a while - openly switched its course to be more accessible. which is always deplorable to see in any branch of game,music,film,book, you name it, industry.

you can call it a 'smart business decision', simply a 'business decision', 'selling out' or a comparable term.

now apparently it's a game which is played by people to relax and watch tv with after a hard day at work. and all GGG had to do was to remove artificial gates and hand out items and power to players !

This has and will happen with every video game forever. People aren't as smart as they used to be. Dumb people breed dumb offspring. Games get easier to please the crowds.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Thats why i say, challenge is there, the problem is that its avoided, yet people constantly want to say "game is too easy".

the challenges are always there. I'll reiterate that I don't think game was ever inherently 'difficult', but you dont measure difficulty by the absolutes, just like you don't measure average player power by the absolutes.

(in fact, this kind of tactics was employed by Chris on the podcast when he talked about GGG not wanting doing a map in 45 minutes and taking 5 hits to kill a white mob; which was absurd- because those things werent even true in 2013, much less in 2016, and thus were largely irrelevant)

the average content 'resistance' to average player power ratio has gone down considerably, and was explicitly stated by Chris to continue.

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grepman wrote:

... that a game that once was positioned as a niche game, a hardcore ARPG, a game that one had to grind in - a game that stayed such an arpg for a while - openly switched its course to be more accessible. which is always deplorable to see in any branch of game,music,film,book, you name it, industry.

you can call it a 'smart business decision', simply a 'business decision', 'selling out' or a comparable term.

now apparently it's a game which is played by people to relax and watch tv with after a hard day at work. and all GGG had to do was to remove artificial gates and hand out items and power to players !

yep, the founder's vision for the game completely changed, from a difficult to play niche game to "easy to plough through" afterwork experience.

i would really appreciate if they somehow could manage both, realise their vision in permanent leagues and have challenging gameplay in temp leagues.

i had so much fun in the perandus flashback league, rushed with a always badly geared bladefall/blade vortex shadow, got my ass permanently kicked (died over 200 times, wanted to go energy shield but no currency/gear for it), didn't reach level 80 but the league was memorable. i wish temp leagues would be this way.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Note how in that video pretty much everything was smacking for 5k ?

Spike damage is numerical difficulty, which is good for the game up to a point.

If spike difficulty is how they plan to balance the game then all you get is that players will start shifting more and more towards CI because you can reach double the amount of buffer compared to life characters.

If monsters are hitting for 5k life characters can't survive while CI characters will instaleech inbetween hits...

So no, ranking up damage the enemies deal to the stratosphere isn't difficulty, mechanical difficulty is 10 times better (Atziri/Malachai/Izaro fights).

Examples of mechanical difficulty:
- tormented spirits possessing a monster
- academy boss (punishes reckless play)
- vilage ruin boss (rewards tactical gameplay)
- Izaro/Atziri/Malachai (rewards tactical gameplay and positioning)
- Most beyond bosses (reward correct usage of flasks, positioning)
- Argus (fighting him while frenzied is actually a threat, which is something you learn during the fight)

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J0hn_L wrote:

This has and will happen with every video game forever. People aren't as smart as they used to be. Dumb people breed dumb offspring. Games get easier to please the crowds.

I don't quite agree; games get more accessible to draw in the crowds. A good game still rewards cleverness, creates opportunities for cleverness, and in general is a game for smart people... it's just that it also has appeal to the less skilled, encouraging them to get better.

Now, what I might agree with would be: GGG's policy on tutorials and other ways of teaching new players have led to a situation where GGG needs to dumb down the game to make it more accessible. There's something like a logical fallacy in trying to make a game for clever, focused people which doesn't have good teaching tools, because if you expect your players to "git gud" then the players need some means of getting better.

:-(

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

Okay im just going to say this again.



For example a hardcore player isnt going to run a map like

I do lots of maps like that HC temp league. So surely ALOT of other people do too.
Just to let you know.