Lab: traps are fascist

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Regulator wrote:

And i ask again how are you people ok with that?

It's simple, you adapt. No hype drugs here, I've played a hybrid character and ran the laby many many times with it successfully. You either get better at positioning your character or you die. If you can't improve your positioning skills then maybe you shouldn't be playing a hybrid character in the laby. :P

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dyneol wrote:

I took less damage with armour on, and even more so when using pots with %armour. It doesn't look like roombas or sawblades care much about armour, but darts and spikes do. Again, its just icing a bit, not the main issue here.

Yea, you've got a good point - life regen should be disabled as well. Again, I do believe GGG's intention with traps was to TRY and make them affect everyone moreless the same. Why else would they go with percentage damage ?

I don't see how trying to equalize its danger is a call for nerf of a playstyle. But you are goetzjam, so I did not expect anything else :)

You took less damage against the traps that won't kill pretty much any character anyways, I mean I guess if that is your thing, its not icing on the cake its simply a benefit those builds have, which ultimately doesn't matter thogh.

In terms of darts, those are very easy to avoid, the slow is what is scary about that, even then not a huge deal.


Why not disable es recharge then as well, its essentially life regen on steroids when you are out of combat?

Its clear you are bias as fuck because you choose to play a build that apparently is weak as fuck in the lab, that isn't my issue that isn't an issue with the lab, its an issue with you not wanting to overcome the challenge presented.


They do % damage so it scales, if person a has a build that can tackle most of the challenges and person b that can do it as well but must play more careful, then its fine, not all builds were created equal and the lab wasn't created to be an equally challenging piece of content. Again following the logic you've presented so far we need to do many more things in order to make the lab "fair" and equally as challenging. That isn't the goal of the lab, if it was all of the possible factors that would allow one build to preform better then another would need to be accounted for and the lab would need to be a fully optional piece of content, because its essentially throwing out the window any notion that character choices matter.


Equalize the danger is something that can't be achieved, you are just going to go down the path of cherry picking things that can be strong in the lab and nerfing them or removing the interactions. First its life recovery and regen, then its movement speed cap, then its physical mitigation does nothing vs the remaining traps (not that this matters) then its es recharge has a longer delay, then its no movement skills. Its a never ending slope in order to equalize the challenge by making it more difficult for builds, instead of doing what is necessary, which is correcting the damage that es characters take, due to the fact that they have higher es, but its improperly calculating the damage.


@Regulator

Your scenarios don't play out though. While those damage mitigation sources might not help the lab was designed to make it so you can and should completely avoid the traps. Its patterns are predictable so it should be no problem avoiding them.

The issue here is you spend too much time bitching about the lab to even bother learning really anything about the "challenges" so you don't know any better.


If you think the traps negate character choices now, then how can you agree with the basic notion that life pots and regen should be disabled as well?

As for some of the mitigation sources, EB should work, I think its bugged. But you need to keep in mind the traps are designed around no one having these mitigation types, which means in that regard builds are "equally challenged"

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

And i ask again how are you people ok with that?

It's simple, you adapt. No hype drugs here, I've played a hybrid character and ran the laby many many times with it successfully. You either get better at positioning your character or you die. If you can't improve your positioning skills then maybe you shouldn't be playing a hybrid character in the laby. :P

Maybe i did not choose the right wording? Maybe my post was not clear enough? Im not sure, in case though the notion was clear and you understood the issue im pointing, the answer you gave is completely irrelevant.

Ill try to pose a more simple one. Are you people ok with a content as large and important as the labyrinth to completely negate your skill tree choices, in a game (ARPG/hack and slash) where one of the foundamentals is to level up and improve your character through those skill tree choices? Personally i find the whole issue beyond counterintuitive, simply put dumb.


EDIT:

@goetzjam : ofcourse i dont agree, cause they give an unfair advantage. Not only those two mechanics, but more, movement speed for example, or damage or elemental resistances that are completely unaffected while countless others are rendered useless. Ive already analyzed this whole issue man, and answered at the same question you just posted here but in my previous post in this thread as well.


Yes i understand that the traps were designed to challenge all equally and i support that but unfortunately something like this does not apply as they are implemented right now. Ive made a suggestion regarding the matter in the past, to actually make this thing as fair and just as possible.

Traps have two damage values one percentage based and one flat based. GGG should work the numbers but the basic notion is that, if for example a player has 10k hp then the percentage value will apply to him cause that will be the greater number, while a person with 4k hp will have the flat value apply to him cause that will be the greater number. Or a combination of flat + percentage based damage. To be truly equal. As i said the current implementation of traps shits on everyone (getting hit or not is irrelevant here) but the amount of shit certain mechanics get is way out of porpotion and totally counterintuitive with the game itself.

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Regulator wrote:

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

And i ask again how are you people ok with that?

It's simple, you adapt. No hype drugs here, I've played a hybrid character and ran the laby many many times with it successfully. You either get better at positioning your character or you die. If you can't improve your positioning skills then maybe you shouldn't be playing a hybrid character in the laby. :P

Maybe i did not choose the right wording? Maybe my post was not clear enough? Im not sure, in case though the notion was clear and you understood the issue im pointing, the answer you gave is completely irrelevant.

Ill try to pose a more simple one. Are you people ok with a content as large and important as the labyrinth to completely negate your skill tree choices, in a game (ARPG/hack and slash) where one of the foundamentals is to level up and improve your character through those skill tree choices? Personally i find the whole issue beyond counterintuitive, simply put dumb.

I don't know how to answer it any more simply than I already did. Dunno why you felt the need to 'dumb it down' but I'll give you a simple answer. Yes, I'm ok with that.

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Regulator wrote:

How would you feel if there was a area that negated all your crit investment in the tree? Or an area that negated all elemental damage you had etc.

We've already got that in enfeeble maps and maps with +ele resist for mobs. And how do we deal with that? We adapt by changing our play style. Why should the laby be any different?

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Regulator wrote:

Spoiler

I kinda agree on the basic notion. Traps are actually designed with good intentions but are extremely bad implemented. Ive already used that argument here but ill analyze a bit here too.

What i find extremely problematic is the fact that traps NEGATE our character choices in an ARPG game. For every reasonable person that alone should have been enough for a riot, but due to the hype drug people are still sleeping here as it seems.

Only CI/Hybrid users grasped how horrible that design is because they are affected the most but that doesnt mean that life users because have pots are in a better position. Even if practically they (life users) are in a better spot (since they can "correct" mistake with pot usage and life regen) they too see a big chunk of the skill points they have spent on the tree rendered UTTERLY USELESS.

It is common (?!?) knowledge that very vew traps are affected by anything that mitigates damage in game, since most of the traps deal damage persecond with few also having hits. That means armour, dodge, block, fortify, evasion, AA, EB etc have absolutely nothing to offer even if a player has actually invested hard on those mechanics in the tree.

And i ask again how are you people ok with that? How would you feel if there was a area that negated all your crit investment in the tree? Or an area that negated all elemental damage you had etc. Or if traps dealt elemental damage and suddenly that 75% resistance you have is uselless cause the elemental traps ignore resistances too. Sounds stupid and broken, doesnt it? Its the same basic principle if you think about it, and its 100% against the foundamentals of RPG games. And thats why traps (as well the whole labyrinth) are fucking horrible, thats why they seem like a clone of arcade games, thats one of the reasons people hate labyrinth playstyle (amongst others). Traps render useless the same choices that define their build, and that alone as i mentioned before is enough for anyone sane to straight up hate the turn the game took with that expansion.

Well, I don't think it's a bad Idea to render mechanics useless in order to give an equal challenge regardless of what defensive options to choose. I feel like traps should be dangerous, no matter what. It is rather easy to build a real tanky toon in a game like PoE, potentially making things like traps completely harmless. I do believe that's exactly why %damage and (mainly) dots where used and I do appreciate that decision.

I just feel like the difference between ES and life is still too significant.

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goetzjam wrote:

You took less damage against the traps that won't kill pretty much any character anyways, I mean I guess if that is your thing, its not icing on the cake its simply a benefit those builds have, which ultimately doesn't matter thogh.

In terms of darts, those are very easy to avoid, the slow is what is scary about that, even then not a huge deal.

Please, lets just leave out armour for a moment. I did say that this plays a minor role in the issue, that it is only icing. A little bonus for life builds if you will.

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Why not disable es recharge then as well, its essentially life regen on steroids when you are out of combat?

No, it is life regen on steroids when you are not being hit. Traps do hit you, making that "argument" moot.

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Its clear you are bias as fuck because you choose to play a build that apparently is weak as fuck in the lab, that isn't my issue that isn't an issue with the lab, its an issue with you not wanting to overcome the challenge presented.

Not sure how to respond to that. How is this an argument ?

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They do % damage so it scales, if person a has a build that can tackle most of the challenges and person b that can do it as well but must play more careful, then its fine, not all builds were created equal and the lab wasn't created to be an equally challenging piece of content. Again following the logic you've presented so far we need to do many more things in order to make the lab "fair" and equally as challenging. That isn't the goal of the lab, if it was all of the possible factors that would allow one build to preform better then another would need to be accounted for and the lab would need to be a fully optional piece of content, because its essentially throwing out the window any notion that character choices matter.

Right. It is your personal opinion that you should be able to build in such a way that makes traps trivial. My opinion is, you should not. Traps should always mean something. GGG indicates a similar position by making them percentage based. Movement skills are fine, imho since every build has access to them.

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Equalize the danger is something that can't be achieved, you are just going to go down the path of cherry picking things that can be strong in the lab and nerfing them or removing the interactions. First its life recovery and regen, then its movement speed cap, then its physical mitigation does nothing vs the remaining traps (not that this matters) then its es recharge has a longer delay, then its no movement skills. Its a never ending slope in order to equalize the challenge by making it more difficult for builds, instead of doing what is necessary, which is correcting the damage that es characters take, due to the fact that they have higher es, but its improperly calculating the damage.

No it can't be 100% equalized, but one could at least do what IS possible. The most obvious difference between life and es is that you can use healing pots. All the other things you have mentioned like movement speed and regen can be done on BOTH builds just about equally well.

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dyneol wrote:

I just feel like the difference between ES and life is still too significant.

Which GGG has already indicated that they agree and will change this likely for next challenge leagues, but not in the way you are thinking.

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鬼殺し wrote:

Armourica, fuck yeah.

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goetzjam wrote:

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dyneol wrote:

I just feel like the difference between ES and life is still too significant.

Which GGG has already indicated that they agree and will change this likely for next challenge leagues, but not in the way you are thinking.

Which I already said is nice. I'm not sure why you are still arguing with me.

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Shovelcut wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

How would you feel if there was a area that negated all your crit investment in the tree? Or an area that negated all elemental damage you had etc.

We've already got that in enfeeble maps and maps with +ele resist for mobs. And how do we deal with that? We adapt by changing our play style. Why should the laby be any different?

The equivalent would be : mosnters are immune to fire/cold/lightning damage, mobs are immune to critical hits etc.

The only comparable thing is Blood Magic and in a lesser extent immune to curses, the first all builds except BM reroll while the latter if a build is based on curses they reroll too. Also for the latter there have been made so many suggestions to change it to lesser curse effectiveness mod that i wouldnt be surprised if that was changed in the future. Immunities to mechanics and completely negation of mechanics is dumb, it was the worse part of d2 era. If your are not taking it seriously no need to continue.

As for the question i posed before i dont believe you have the willigness to comprehend or you lack the experience to do so, and believe me im not exaggerating when i say this neither im trying to make you feel bad in case the latter applies. This issue is far greater than what it is commonly perceived.

@dyneol, complete negation is straigh up bullshit as is complete immunity, especially in a game where your skill choices are supposed to matter, are those that define your build and make your character unique. Thats why i also suggested a more fair solution where percentage + flat is combined so that tanky characters indeed feel that : "yes my choices mattered, i took 10% less damage that the glass cannon who 1shots Izaro" instead of "fuck i have 8k life, i accidentally missclicked/lagged and took 4k dmg in less than a second, while the glass cannon who 1shots Izaro took 1k dmg"

If things were reversed there would have been a rebellion. Imagine if Izaro was completely immune to critical strikes, or his hits negated completely elemental resistances. Its the same principle and its bad.

I support GGG's decision to try and make the game more challenging, but in practice what they implemented is just unfair and counterintuitive to the game itself. The fact that they recognized how stupid this is regarding hybrid and CI builds speaks volumes how bad designed and implemented traps are since they will indeed adress this issue. And thats the basic notion im trying to spread, the fact that life build are in a better spot cause certain mechanics (pots/life regen) can help them does not mean that they dont get shit on, on a foundamental level like ES builds do in greater volume.