Lab: traps are fascist

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

Armourica, fuck yeah.

Very helpful, thank you both so much. <3

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dyneol wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

.

I'm not sure why you are still arguing with me.

Don't worry, we've all been there.

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Right. It is your personal opinion that you should be able to build in such a way that makes traps trivial. My opinion is, you should not. Traps should always mean something. GGG indicates a similar position by making them percentage based. Movement skills are fine, imho since every build has access to them.

Much like all the rest of the content in the game some builds will be better then others, that is and will always be a fact.

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No it can't be 100% equalized, but one could at least do what IS possible. The most obvious difference between life and es is that you can use healing pots. All the other things you have mentioned like movement speed and regen can be done on BOTH builds just about equally well.

"just about" yeah ok, its not like most of the movement speed is on the right side of the tree or anything and because mitigation doesn't really matter in the lab, there will be no competing with what is the best if recovery isn't possible, it will be movement speed because why do you need to regen if you can completely avoid the traps altogether? Have you watched anyone speed run the lab? They do it based on movement speed, not life regen or life pots and "tanking" the damage.

As it stands now life regen\life builds can sort of keep up with the max movement speed style builds if they use a movement skill.

So really its only es characters not having a mechanic that really enables them to approach the challenge in a more unique way. If GGG wants to make it fair, they make ES % take overall less that way its "almost perfect" trifectia that can be possible.


Evasion style builds have the faster movement and the better movement skills.
Life builds have life flask and higher regen to deal with "accidently hitting" the traps.

and

ES builds overall take less damage and can recharge quickly if they do get hit a couple of times.



Which sounds better, targeting the one specific instance that is suffering or bringing the others down to that level?


Before you answer that keep in mind not a single other piece of content in the game disables life recovery from pots. And only map mods (which the lab is before) affect life regen or movement speed.

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Regulator wrote:

As for the question i posed before i dont believe you have the willigness to comprehend or you lack the experience to do so, and believe me im not exaggerating when i say this neither im trying to make you feel bad in case the latter applies. This issue is far greater than what it is commonly perceived.

So I'm the one who can adapt and has no issues with the problems you're having and yet I'm the one with lackluster comprehension and experience? Yeah, ok.

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Regulator wrote:

Spoiler

@dyneol, complete negation is straigh up bullshit as is complete immunity, especially in a game where your skill choices are supposed to matter, are those that define your build and make your character unique. Thats why i also suggested a more fair solution where percentage + flat is combined so that tanky characters indeed feel that : "yes my choices mattered, i took 10% less damage that the glass cannon who 1shots Izaro" instead of "fuck i have 8k life, i accidentally missclicked/lagged and took 4k dmg in less than a second, while the glass cannon who 1shots Izaro took 1k dmg"

If things were reversed there would have been a rebellion. Imagine if Izaro was completely immune to critical strikes, or his hits negated completely elemental resistances. Its the same principle and its bad.

I support GGG's decision to try and make the game more challenging, but in practice what they implemented is just unfair and counterintuitive to the game itself. The fact that they recognized how stupid this is regarding hybrid and CI builds speaks volumes how bad designed and implemented traps are since they will indeed adress this issue. And thats the basic notion im trying to spread, the fact that life build are in a better spot cause certain mechanics (pots/life regen) can help them does not mean that they dont get shit on, on a foundamental level like ES builds do in greater volume.

I certainly get where you are coming from. It was a pretty ballsy move from GGG to put a gianna sisters into an ARPG. I respect the dislikes in that regard and understand why people want Ascendancy points decoupled from the lab.

I can't really participate in that particular discussion because there I am really biased, since I happen to enjoy that change of pace. We've to agree not to agree, unfortunately.

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dyneol wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

Spoiler

@dyneol, complete negation is straigh up bullshit as is complete immunity, especially in a game where your skill choices are supposed to matter, are those that define your build and make your character unique. Thats why i also suggested a more fair solution where percentage + flat is combined so that tanky characters indeed feel that : "yes my choices mattered, i took 10% less damage that the glass cannon who 1shots Izaro" instead of "fuck i have 8k life, i accidentally missclicked/lagged and took 4k dmg in less than a second, while the glass cannon who 1shots Izaro took 1k dmg"

If things were reversed there would have been a rebellion. Imagine if Izaro was completely immune to critical strikes, or his hits negated completely elemental resistances. Its the same principle and its bad.

I support GGG's decision to try and make the game more challenging, but in practice what they implemented is just unfair and counterintuitive to the game itself. The fact that they recognized how stupid this is regarding hybrid and CI builds speaks volumes how bad designed and implemented traps are since they will indeed adress this issue. And thats the basic notion im trying to spread, the fact that life build are in a better spot cause certain mechanics (pots/life regen) can help them does not mean that they dont get shit on, on a foundamental level like ES builds do in greater volume.

I certainly get where you are coming from. It was a pretty ballsy move from GGG to put a gianna sisters into an ARPG. I respect the dislikes in that regard and understand why people want Ascendancy points decoupled from the lab.

I can't really participate in that particular discussion because there I am really biased, since I happen to enjoy that change of pace. We've to agree not to agree, unfortunately.

I dont believe i took the issue to the AC un-gating argument and if i did imply it im sorry.

I dont know if actually my sentences/posts are beyond comprehension due to bad wording/structure, but i actually agree on the equalization of traps regarding all builds possible, what you basically suggest in the OP isnt it? Im just asking a change that goes along thoselines but also the basics of the game itself the same time. And thats why i also suggested flat+percentage damage that might actually be far more just.

Thanks for the understanding actually (bold part), and also enlighten me if you are suggesting something else in the opening thread from what i understood (italic text sentence), cause i believe we share the basic notion while disagreeing in the level of rework it needs to get better.

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goetzjam wrote:

"just about" yeah ok, its not like most of the movement speed is on the right side of the tree or anything and because mitigation doesn't really matter in the lab, there will be no competing with what is the best if recovery isn't possible, it will be movement speed because why do you need to regen if you can completely avoid the traps altogether? Have you watched anyone speed run the lab? They do it based on movement speed, not life regen or life pots and "tanking" the damage.

You are really enjoying this aren't you ? Man go out, have a beer or at least actually play the game ... You are constantly camping the feedback section, I'm at a loss as to how you manage to do that :o

If at least your argumentation was sound, but most the time it's just ... not. You cannot get life recovery from pots as ES at all. You can however get movement speed. It might be a tad more costly here and there but the difference is one is not at all under no circumstance possible and the other is.

Please try to respect my request about leaving movement skills out of this topic. It is irrelevant. Again, both ES and Life builds can use those (which I do, of course). Being humans we do make mistakes, though in which circumstance Life is more forgiving thanks to pots. Please keep in mind that some players (like me) only play HC where those mistakes actually matter a lot.

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Which sounds better, targeting the one specific instance that is suffering or bringing the others down to that level?

So you do feel you'd lose an edge :p As mentioned in the OP, I'd like them to reduce trap damage appropriately. You'd not get fucked all that hard.

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Before you answer that keep in mind not a single other piece of content in the game disables life recovery from pots. And only map mods (which the lab is before) affect life regen or movement speed.

Lab/traps is a completely different/novel concept here. There's absolutely no point comparing that to mapping.

Considering that the rest of the game heavily punishes no HP in every slot and every node stacking tanky builds or even makes them downright unplayable, I find the fact that labyrinth favors swift evasion based builds with good flasks pretty fair.

Did all three HC labs with two life/es hybrids, it's fucking unpleasant but doable - you just have to take your time and never, ever rush in without knowing where the safe spot is. For some trap fields you have to stay and just watch them for some time to get the pattern. There's always one. Had to restart a lab once because of a trap gauntlet with no vision.

It's mostly a test of patience. Not fun but can be done safely.

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You are really enjoying this aren't you ? Man go out, have a beer or at least actually play the game ... You are constantly camping the feedback section, I'm at a loss as to how you manage to do that :o

This is a new one, I'll gladly go get the beer you want me to if you send the money my way for one.

As for how I'm able to post so frequently on the forums I have a job that enables be to browse quit a bit, but playing would be a bit too hard because it does have its interruptions.

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If at least your argumentation was sound, but most the time it's just ... not. You cannot get life recovery from pots as ES at all. You can however get movement speed. It might be a tad more costly here and there but the difference is one is not at all under no circumstance possible and the other is.

http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Coruscating_Elixir

Vaal discipline is another form of recovery, not directly available to life based builds.

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Please try to respect my request about leaving movement skills out of this topic. It is irrelevant. Again, both ES and Life builds can use those (which I do, of course). Being humans we do make mistakes, though in which circumstance Life is more forgiving thanks to pots. Please keep in mind that some players (like me) only play HC where those mistakes actually matter a lot.

Yeah and I totally don't play hardcore either.

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So you do feel you'd lose an edge :p As mentioned in the OP, I'd like them to reduce trap damage appropriately. You'd not get fucked all that hard.

Edge, I created my character because I thought it would mitigate the traps better then alternatives, I was wrong. The best way to mitigate them is by avoiding them with the highest movement speed possible, this is only really available to the right side of the tree.

As for not getting fucked all that hard, you underestimate others abilitys to react when presented with a challenge that isn't clear. You seem to think it would be easy to explain to people, hey guys you know those life flask we've shown you since level 1, yeah that shit don't work in here.

There isn't a clear and concise way to do that, so they will NEVER do it. You can give that part a rest.

In addition es based characters CHOOSE TO PLAY THAT WAY, very well knowing the downside of their build IN THE REST OF THE FUCKING GAME is no "real" pots. So why would the lab be really any different, if you dont have pots outside the lab, then obviously you dont have pots to heal up inside the lab. That part is self explanatory.

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Lab/traps is a completely different/novel concept here. There's absolutely no point comparing that to mapping.

Then compare it to the rest of the game, why would the lab have all these modifiers to it that the regular game doesn't?

If you still are too stubborn to realize that you can't just constantly bring and target others builds for this sort of content and bring it down, there is no hope for you.