Difference between melee and range builds.

^Well duelist - slayer seems to indicate melee splash is here to stay.

And again, this only amounts to a dps increase in the end. It does nothing about the discrepancy that comes from "see target -> move to it -> attack" vs "see target -> attack"

The only way to balance that out is to give ranged something to do between "see target -> attack" or to penalize their movement speed overall so it evens out while they move between packs themselves. Then again, there is weapon swapping to off-set such a thing.

Dps is really not an issue, i got like 50K with a 1-hander currently in a 5-link using melee splash as a link. It's plenty and a 6-link would only make it absurd given the rate i already kill.

Survive ability is also not an issue imo, i only die from stupid player-errors.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

Then yes, introduce far-shot on monsters and perhaps things like "maim on being hit" for monsters to slow down rangers attacking them.

Maim on hit on monsters would be a direct nerf to melee. Ranged attackers don't care about movement speed at all because they can just stand still and fire a projectile. Melee has to go from pack to pack - reduced movement speed has a huge impact on that playstyle.

"

Boem wrote:

As is, nerfing volatile, which does absolutely nothing against rangers would help. Irrelevant if you think so or not. Go and run a -max +life map and go sit next to one with your ranger when it explodes, something a melee has to do currently because -> hands in the air like we just don't care.
And it can crit, cause, fuck do i know?

Volatily mechanics would actually be a nice design if melee and ranged were equaly effective at doing content and if a similar punishing mechanic for ranged would exist. Since this isn't the case and since such a mechanic doesn't exist for ranged melee has a big disadvantage. Another thing is that volatile explosions can't be evaded/dodged or blocked - they can only be mitigated but not avoided if you are in melee range - nerfing volatile would make the mechanic have no impact at all for any player i feel - being threatened by some mechanics more than others in the game is good i feel - if nothing is threatening anymore for any character in the game the game would become boring quickly.

"

Boem wrote:

Anyways, enjoy the e-peen measuring to dictate who has the best plausible solution...

It is not on us, the players, to find a "solution" - that is GGG's job. Giving feedback should be all about rising concerns, talking about "problems" and how players feel about the current situation :^)

"

Boem wrote:

^Well duelist - slayer seems to indicate melee splash is here to stay.

But what skill will you use with "free" splash?
Dual Strike? No, your nodes are two-handed, so it will work only for WoE.
Infernal Blow? It suckz and you dont leech from elemental much
Glacial Hammer? Same
Heavy Strike? It knockbacks. Also, you wont find enough support gems for it to fill 6-link.
Dominating Blow? WTFLOL!

"

Wiesl_1404 wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

Then yes, introduce far-shot on monsters and perhaps things like "maim on being hit" for monsters to slow down rangers attacking them.

Maim on hit on monsters would be a direct nerf to melee. Ranged attackers don't care about movement speed at all because they can just stand still and fire a projectile. Melee has to go from pack to pack - reduced movement speed has a huge impact on that playstyle.

If the "maim on being hit" effect lasts 1 second +-

Then it's irrelevant for melee, since they will be in melee range hitting. Also a melee is suppose to be somewhat "tanky" so should be less penalized for mechanics that make you "hold your ground".
(PoE somewhat laughs at the hold your ground concept though, even for melee's)

But a ranged that would hit such mobs would have more chance to be flanked or rushed as a result of it.

This assumes a ranger can kill a pack like this before they reach him, but it increases the stress and forces more error's in play-style.

Obviously, it's quite hard to create mechanics like this that penalize ranged > melee.

Which is why i think we have seen so little solid ones.

Problem is the vast variety and scope of builds, which also allows tanky rangers which would gain the benefits of both play-styles as a result. It's all a big mess, thank god i simply love smashing faces up close or i would be ranged 24/7.

@mortal

double strike is solid with splash, infernal blow also rocks and frenzy + heavy strike are good candidates as-well.

Glacial with splash rework also has good potential now and so does viper strike if build appropriately.

They are most certainly viable and fun.(<-- haha, who still uses this therm...)
They won't win out in a meta battle delux, but if your playing melee for that then i suggest a new game.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : typo

i prefer melee because its more fun and i like to smash things in the face.

this season marked the first time i tried a pure ranged character. this ranged character is much more powerful across the majority of scenarios and clears maps way faster too.

without getting into specifics, all that i can say is that it sucks that melee characters don't both do more damage and have more survivability.

certain boss fights that are stressful for melee characters are a joke for this ranged character...the bosses are insta-nuked. trying to think of a situation where the scenario is reversed and i can't.

would like some melee buffs.

I don't understand why people are against the whole idea of melee being powerfull .

Melee already has a huge downside , it needs playstyle specific tools to get to the target survie its mechanics and deal damage to it .

But the problem here in this game is pretty simple , everyone regardless if they are ranged or melee have the freedom to use the same tools for dps and survival which shouldn't have been the case .

Something has to change , but not entirely sure how the change may happen so it doesn't contratict with the design ideas of GGG or maybe these ideas are not up to date anymore and they need to rethink the whole thing .

Pretty sure that by now it's obvious that melee needs rework , a simple buff or nerf will not do the job though . The change must be something that locks certain tools to certain playstyles and we all know that GGG won't let this happen at least for now .

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

rory was talking on the last podcast about having to make single target skills do more damage in a 4 link than an AoE does in a 6 link in order for them to be good with the gem system. Thats very true, i mean weve mentioned it on the forums many times, certainly a thing. so that got me thinking....

Was melee splash a mistake? Imagine you take out melee splash, and then you buff dual strike, double strike, heavy strike, all the single target melee skills so that they actually work like that. A 4 link doublestrike is going to do significantly more damage than a 6 link reave, if ur 6 link reave is 100k dps than ur doublestrike in a 4 link will be 150k.

You get things where people then made the single target 6 link. Thats fine, the damage would be insane but they cant clear content with it because theres no splash. For 2h builds they could make amental single target + aoe becaus ethey have 2x 6links. Again, is that a problem or does that give 2h a nice boost in a game where they are out damaged by a guy with a dagger and a shield quite consistently?

Maybe splash was just a mistake and these strict toe to toe melee skills should instead have just been giving insane damage so that they have a place along side stuff like reave? Then youre not trying to compare a doublestrike or glacial hammer build against a reaver, cause thats just not a realistic comparison, it cant ever compete until glacial hits half the screen, and at that point wve gone to a very silly place. But it would have a place along side say ice crash IF the 4 link version was significantly better single target than ur 5/6link crash.

I think the current implementation/trend with Melee Splash is a mistake. Essentially, a single-target melee skill without MSplash should act like how you're describing, and a single-target melee skill with MSplash support should, well, go "to a very silly place" in terms of AoE, at the cost of a massive damage penalty.

So when I look at MSplash now I want to nerf it almost as much as I want to buff it...
1. The single-target damage isn't penalized at all. Needs more penalty, because...
2. The AoE is still too small. Needs bigger. But that's a moot point because...
3. The AoE doesn't even work. You shouldn't need a single-target hit to get AoE.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

rory was talking on the last podcast about having to make single target skills do more damage in a 4 link than an AoE does in a 6 link in order for them to be good with the gem system. Thats very true, i mean weve mentioned it on the forums many times, certainly a thing. so that got me thinking....

Was melee splash a mistake? Imagine you take out melee splash, and then you buff dual strike, double strike, heavy strike, all the single target melee skills so that they actually work like that. A 4 link doublestrike is going to do significantly more damage than a 6 link reave, if ur 6 link reave is 100k dps than ur doublestrike in a 4 link will be 150k.

You get things where people then made the single target 6 link. Thats fine, the damage would be insane but they cant clear content with it because theres no splash. For 2h builds they could make amental single target + aoe becaus ethey have 2x 6links. Again, is that a problem or does that give 2h a nice boost in a game where they are out damaged by a guy with a dagger and a shield quite consistently?

Maybe splash was just a mistake and these strict toe to toe melee skills should instead have just been giving insane damage so that they have a place along side stuff like reave? Then youre not trying to compare a doublestrike or glacial hammer build against a reaver, cause thats just not a realistic comparison, it cant ever compete until glacial hits half the screen, and at that point wve gone to a very silly place. But it would have a place along side say ice crash IF the 4 link version was significantly better single target than ur 5/6link crash.

I think the current implementation/trend with Melee Splash is a mistake. Essentially, a single-target melee skill without MSplash should act like how you're describing, and a single-target melee skill with MSplash support should, well, go "to a very silly place" in terms of AoE, at the cost of a massive damage penalty.

So when I look at MSplash now I want to nerf it almost as much as I want to buff it...
1. The single-target damage isn't penalized at all. Needs more penalty, because...
2. The AoE is still too small. Needs bigger. But that's a moot point because...
3. The AoE doesn't even work. You shouldn't need a single-target hit to get AoE.

ya.

People used to criticize splash and I would say why the hating, its just options and its not overpowered. But the more I think about it recently the more Ive thought I would probably ditch it. But yeah, you know it does just add options and you can have them both because u can put any damage penalty on splash and get the best of both worlds. Rather than removing the 30% less damage penalty or whatever it was maybe the thing to do would have been to up it to 50% less damage and then go around to every single melee skill that legitimately needs splash to have any aoe and up its damage by 100%, maybe even more than that, maybe bigger numbers on both.


The change to splash was positive and I was happy to see it, removing the penalty, because now its actually usable and along with it all those skills come out of the closet. But its a different angle if you can give those skills a new way to fit in rather than having a necessary support that attempts to simply make them compete with aoe.

honestly, to go back and design the game again from scratch, 6 link on chest and 6 link on every weapon, shield and quiver, offhand slot for 2h builds. Everyone has three 6links. Sounds stupidly powerful from the current perspective but the game would just be balanced around it. The game could be so much more interesting in terms of skills.

"

Starxsword wrote:

I assume you know what far shot does. And range players do give a damn about far shot, you must not be playing the same game if you think that is the case.
I am not even sure how you can offscreen stuff all the time, that rarely happens.

LOL

"

Your summaries are wrong and your arguments are mostly made-up.

So instead of just saying I am wrong in terms of the summary, you point out where the summary of the information that is wrong is coming from, including whatever the previous post was that I was wrong about summarizing.

My arguments are made up? My arguments are based on experience.

"

You are the typical guy that thinks buying supporter titles and at best having a general idea about stuff gives you the right to talk about things that you don't understand.

More then a general idea, lets see should we take information and feedback from someone that has played this game constantly for 3+ years, or take the feedback from someone that bashes supporters of this game and left 1.5 years ago because he wasn't getting this way?

"

Basically everyone agrees that there are fundamental issues with melee vs. ranged and many gave good suggestions to close that huge gap but you still come up with your made-up explanations and arguments to claim the opposite in order to derail the thread.

I was trying to summarize the general idea of what the people in this thread have said, instead of correcting me you just say I'm wrong without any supporting evidence. Again I'm repeating what others have said, do I agree with everything being said, nope but that doesn't mean the summary is wrong or that I am wrong for summarizing, even if those ideas themselves are.

"

Let me tell you one thing. With the kind of gear that you show in your char tab (better hide that next time), ranged is not that much better compared to melee at certain points of the game (beginning of endgame). If you compare top-end gear melee vs. ranged then the issue is the most visible. Ofc you cannot report from that first-hand. You probably have never joined a map rotation and saw high end ranged gear in action anyway.

Again insulting my experience, when you can see the characters but know nothing of their past. Please tell me which specific characters you looked at. My current THC character is a quad curse support, hes seen all but T15 map bosses with various mods, except curse immune for obvious reasons. Your experience is what exactly, just so people know you left the game for how long, for how many patch rotations have you been out of the loop?

I guess your suggesting that because none of my current characters have mirror level bow gear that I don't know anything about how strong ranged is or how strong the playstyle can be, no one is disputing that fact, but I mainly play in the temp leagues and play HC so my playstyles typically don't align with bow builds anymore. When I played in SC and SC temp leagues I did, but the cost of death in HC means I rather be tanky and safe then do lots of damage and die to one simple mistake.

I've played with people in standard that have done llst when it was the strongest spec in the game, I've played with the most recent strong spec, chaos firespells\traps, different versions all really strong. What have you played in the last year or two?

"

But on the other hand ppl have reported enough about things like leveling up with spells/bows even tho building a melee charackter. If all that is no issue, then this thread can be closed. However if it is an issue, then Goetz must get banned out of it for blatantly lying and derailing.

People always level in the fastest way possible, GGG nerfed the phys belt recipe in 2.0, so its much more difficult to craft weapons when leveling, in addition crafting weapons constantly when leveling is not something lazy players want to do. Even if they could level as the spec they are going endgame, if they can do something else and put forth less effort, even if its a bit slower less effort>slightly higher clearspeed.

Blatantly lying about what, again you never call any specifics just make bold claims and never back them up. Derailing is the definition of what you've contributed to this thread, instead of being anything relative to the topic at hand you are being overly aggressive to somehow "weaken" my position on this topic or to try and pull a negative response from me. If anyone should be banned from this thread it should be you. You have contributed literally nothing, you aren't even on topic except saying I'm wrong but not supporting it with anything.

"

Therefore I attack him.

Which is against the forum rules and serves no purpose in encouraging active discussion on the topic.

"

And a ridiculous fact:
When I left this game about 18 months ago Goetz was in these kind of threads talking bullshit. I come back to see what is going on nowadays and I see him still writing bullshit. Nuff said, lol.

Too bad you didn't stay away. My responses aren't bullshit your behavior in this thread however is.

"

as if an ARPG cannot have elements of an MMO in endgame, especially if it would benefit the whole thing alot and bring thousands of players back to play it. He is convinced that he is doing good for the game by defending bullshit game mechanics with bullshit arguments. Hf & GZ with continuing to watch it die off slowly and doing your best to prevent any change for the better Goetz!

An ARPG can have elements obviously, but the argument in which I said it wasn't an MMO had entirely to do with combat and party play. Of course you are too much worried about proving me wrong you just look at a picture and bash it instead of understanding the depth of the conversation that took place before you stuck your nose in this thread.

Die off slowly, thats fine, if GGG doesn't have to put up with players like yourself that just QQ and leave when you don't get your way then the game as a whole and GGG is better off.

"

goetzjam simply has the patience to humor these melee threads atm while other people who generally agree with him just see these topic titles and think dear god, are they still going on about this stuff?

Tis true, I get random PMs from time to time thanking me for taking the time to respond to post and that they agree with me but don't have time to writeup responses like I do.

"

Just to quote some of my previous suggestions:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/880822/page/1
And GGG created hideouts and Masters shortly after ...

You created that in april, GGG released masters in august, I assure you they were already working on the masters and hideouts before your suggestion. A dev is welcome to prove me wrong and say yes we took this idea, but unless they specifically say it, then you just have a though similar to what a dev did, that doesn't mean your suggestions are worth anymore then anyone elses.

"

And guess what? Two years after my suggestions with quite detailed explanations GGG is taking exactly this to the game with Asendancy and giving further distinctive char development to players with different pathes, as I described.

Its not really anything like you describe, of course paths are obviously the same, but they aren't directly the same. Lets also consider that they again didn't likely get the idea from your thread.

You make it seem like the suggestions you've made and the game revolves around you, it doesn't that is why you left this last time.

"

Should I remind you on this when GGG introduces endgame MMO elements in the future? ;-)

When they introduce more MMO style elements is when they will stop receiving support from me, depending on the elements. Stuff like the combat or forcing specific party play should never be messed with. But it would make you happy so they can get a freeloading player that just quits when they don't get what they want back, but a player like myself that purchases packs and supports this game will leave. Lets see whats financially viable future for the game......

"

Agreed with LSN. Goetzjam doesn't contribute to this discussion. I learnt about 10 pages ago that his essays don't really say anything. Boem too:

Yeah I mean you add so much @ceryneian, lets see your latest contribution to this post "lol"




Just wrap up my comments so far with saying someone is wrong, but not proving how. Saying someone doesn't contribute when your latest comments in a thread is just "lol" I love that people dislike what I am saying to the point that they can't comeup with any sort of legitimate counter argument instead just reply back when generic things like "hes just wrong' "he should be banned" and whatever other shit they comeup with. It means so much to me guys, thanks.