Difference between melee and range builds.
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Correct analysis in all parts.
A thing to add from my side: If he was fine with stating his opinion once or maybe 10-15 times even, then I was fine. But the whole thread is derailed by his blinded attitude and argumentation so that it barely makes sense to proceed with it. Therefore I attack him. And a ridiculous fact: When I left this game about 18 months ago Goetz was in these kind of threads talking bullshit. I come back to see what is going on nowadays and I see him still writing bullshit. Nuff said, lol. Not nuff said: Then he is posting images of why PoE is an ARPG and no MMO like an infantile. As if an ARPG cannot have elements of an MMO in endgame, especially if it would benefit the whole thing alot and bring thousands of players back to play it. He is convinced that he is doing good for the game by defending bullshit game mechanics with bullshit arguments. Hf & GZ with continuing to watch it die off slowly and doing your best to prevent any change for the better Goetz! Last edited by LSN on Feb 10, 2016, 7:26:02 PM
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goetzjam simply has the patience to humor these melee threads atm while other people who generally agree with him just see these topic titles and think dear god, are they still going on about this stuff?
In my opinion theres 1 major issue for melee, and thats instakill in melee range mechanics like volatile blood, certain molten shells. Bearers are fine. Thats actually a real issue above all others for melee and yet with all these omg buff melee threads people havent managed to get together and make a straight forward, widely signed up to individual case for sorting it out. People made cases for mana and they changed mana, if rather than scurrying back and forth from "this is the problem" to "that is the problem" to "yeah but vaal spark" every other post if people actually looked for selective real problems, highlighted them individually and made a case for a solution you might actually get somewhere on that specific point. IF the point has substance on its own without retreating to entirely different points when put under scrutiny and is allowed to be made without bringing in the full circus. |
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Yes there are a few melee builds, cyclone is amongst them, that are competitive. Cyclone mostly as you are moving while attacking and dodge projectiles meanwhiles. It is unique in that way.
Other than that, ranged does everything better than melee. In general game would be fine with everyone doing everything. But as GGG cannot manage to balance it out decently bringing MMO elements to the game can be a fine work around with new challenges and incentives for players (endgame only). Just to quote some of my previous suggestions: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/880822/page/1 And GGG created hideouts and Masters shortly after ... https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/971737/page/1 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1048468 And guess what? Two years after my suggestions with quite detailed explanations GGG is taking exactly this to the game with Asendancy and giving further distinctive char development to players with different pathes, as I described. I guess my suggestions can't be that bad. Especially with the latter one I had to argue against a bunch of idiots which didn't understand nothing. Where are your references Goetz and all the others? I suggest now and here to circumvent the melee vs. range disparity by introducing MMO elements. First it is an easy way to get this problem under control and second it is a great way to inject new fun into the game for many many players that have left and would surely come back then. When melee needs ranged and the other way round to do late endgame, the balance isn't that important anymore and problem is fixed. Should I remind you on this when GGG introduces endgame MMO elements in the future? ;-) Nothing is impossible! I will quote your glorious ARPG pic then as well Goetzjam, better remove it now. Last edited by LSN on Feb 10, 2016, 8:20:43 PM
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"GGG response: nerf Cyclone. If you guys want an example of a viable melee skill which actually feels like melee, and not a ranged skill, Cyclone was it. It is short-ranged. It's actually weak to stuff like Volatile _____blood, unlike stuff like Reave and Ground Slam. And the only reason why it was viable was: you could clear mobs AND move to the next pack at the same time. Something even ranged has to resort to Vaal skills to do. Cyclone has a unique clearspeed bonus, and like I've been saying, clearspeed is what everything boils down to. So okay, snorkle, if melee for you begins and ends with Cyclone, then maybe your right. However, I'd like to see more short-ranged skills than that in the meta. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Feb 10, 2016, 8:17:33 PM
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Scrotie and snorkle are on point.
people entering threads like these usually tackle the subject from their position = request for defensive/offensive buff, both are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Melee needs to be thrown a bone to make them different or stand out from other play-styles. -increasing damage? yeah no, that doesn't achieve that goal -increasing defense? yeah......nope. Balancing content like volatile and giving more monsters far shot like ability's while penalizing ranged more. Less = more and in this case its ranged attackers that need the "less" so melee can have "more" instead of bloating the content with failed solutions and forcing melee to cope with them in the long haul. Threads like these.... Just repeating the same subjective stances and opinions after another, dividing, creating sides. All irrelevant, at the end of the line GGG does as they please. Peace, -Boem- edit : as long as GGG allows the power discrepancy between high-tier-geared characters and medium-tier-geared characters to be so wide, they cannot even come close to a suitable balance state. If the P is to volatile, the E needs to be as-well. Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes Last edited by Boem on Feb 10, 2016, 9:53:22 PM
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Agreed with LSN. Goetzjam doesn't contribute to this discussion. I learnt about 10 pages ago that his essays don't really say anything. Boem too:
- Reducing volatile damage will not help the melee problem - Including "far shot" enemies? Really? Great suggestion Boem, let's penalize the melee guys more for having to move from pack to pack. While ranged players will not give a damn about far-shot when they are already offscreening shit before the AI EVEN TRIGGERS There is a meta-problem with melee, and the suggestions I laid out make sense. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. I play ranged and have played all the popular bow builds and currently enjoying my low-life blade fall build, but I'm not biased like some of you guys seem to be. Last edited by Ceryneian on Feb 11, 2016, 12:44:19 AM
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" I'd change the word "meta" with "fundamental". And I agree with the rest of your post (aside from the "I'm "better" than you part, can't judge^^). | |
" I assume you know what far shot does. And range players do give a damn about far shot, you must not be playing the same game if you think that is the case. I am not even sure how you can offscreen stuff all the time, that rarely happens. " I play range and I play melee. The issue of melee has been the same, back then and now. Melee was never is a terrible state, it usually just swings between meh to decent. But that is because melee is not fun to play. Their targeting system is terrible. They need to get change targeting for melee. Any opponent within that range of your attack should get hit, not just the one you targeted. That or get rid of targeting and have your melee guy do swings that have hitboxes to hit the monsters. Kind of like how Cyclone does it. As already mentioned several times. Gear discrepancy is the reason why you cannot possibly nerf range correctly. If you nerf range too hard for high end gear, low/mid range gear will never clear content. But if you don't, then, you go back to case when where high end gear one shots screens. But this cannot be solved, because as already mentioned multiple times, gear discrepancy is too large. For example, high end bladefall does what? 300k damage? So, if you want to nerf it, that is a 95% nerf to the skill for high end gear, bringing it down to 15k damage. High end gear will still have decent clear speed, but, the guys with 10k bladefall (low/mid range), well guess what? Their damage dropped from 10k to 500. I'm sure you know how tough it will be for you if you only had 500 dps in act3, act 4, and maps in merciless. |
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" . . . . . So reducing the impact of melee only obstacles will not help melee, not sure what to think about that. About far shot, your looking at it in a vacuum of the current game state, which is an assumption on your part. -> reduce move-ability of ranged (blink/mirror arrow should have never even made it into the game, i thought that at the time and i stick with that, rangers have plenty of move speed to get if they want it) -> reduce AOE potential of ranged(like scrotie hints at, simply fuck ranged over on the aoe clearing department) Then yes, introduce far-shot on monsters and perhaps things like "maim on being hit" for monsters to slow down rangers attacking them. Sure when you look at it in a vacuum i can sort of see why you think they are bad suggestions, luckily i am perfectly aware the current game-state is not going to change any time soon and these suggestions are done while keeping an open mind and consider a re-balance of the game-state to actually make them valuable. As is, nerfing volatile, which does absolutely nothing against rangers would help. Irrelevant if you think so or not. Go and run a -max +life map and go sit next to one with your ranger when it explodes, something a melee has to do currently because -> hands in the air like we just don't care. And it can crit, cause, fuck do i know? Other preferred changes, given that melee is pretty much OK from a player power level perspective suggest's melee is not an issue, but ranged attackers are. Anyways, enjoy the e-peen measuring to dictate who has the best plausible solution. Make sure to send me a post-card with "i told you so" if GGG stumbles to utilize any of them. Obligatory thread relevant "my suggestion is the best suggestion cause i am Boem and you are not". /rolls-eyes Peace, -Boem- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
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" the short range melee skills are really bad. cyclone is literally the slowest clearing build I play, not jus tby a little, by an absolute ton. I dont even really care about clearspeeds if I enjoy a build but cyclone takes it to the edge, theres times I feel like fuck playing these builds I just dont have the patience to cyclone down every single mob 1 by 1. Compared to the long range melee skills its awful, but compared to any other melee skill that has that complete lack of range its godly, theyre all worse than cyclone. rory was talking on the last podcast about having to make single target skills do more damage in a 4 link than an AoE does in a 6 link in order for them to be good with the gem system. Thats very true, i mean weve mentioned it on the forums many times, certainly a thing. so that got me thinking.... Was melee splash a mistake? Imagine you take out melee splash, and then you buff dual strike, double strike, heavy strike, all the single target melee skills so that they actually work like that. A 4 link doublestrike is going to do significantly more damage than a 6 link reave, if ur 6 link reave is 100k dps than ur doublestrike in a 4 link will be 150k. You get things where people then made the single target 6 link. Thats fine, the damage would be insane but they cant clear content with it because theres no splash. For 2h builds they could make amental single target + aoe becaus ethey have 2x 6links. Again, is that a problem or does that give 2h a nice boost in a game where they are out damaged by a guy with a dagger and a shield quite consistently? Maybe splash was just a mistake and these strict toe to toe melee skills should instead have just been giving insane damage so that they have a place along side stuff like reave? Then youre not trying to compare a doublestrike or glacial hammer build against a reaver, cause thats just not a realistic comparison, it cant ever compete until glacial hits half the screen, and at that point wve gone to a very silly place. But it would have a place along side say ice crash IF the 4 link version was significantly better single target than ur 5/6link crash. |
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